Islam/Christian differences--Debate thread

Maggie
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Islam/Christian differences--Debate thread Sept 26, 2013 19:57:49 GMT -6

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Post by Maggie on Sept 26, 2013 19:57:49 GMT -6

I do understand. I had to bite my tongue hard because I fly off the handle too easily and because I like Woodrow and Nabilbb. I like Sky, too and don't understand what she is up to. But this is the first test of our mission. If we don't pass it then we shut up shop, or settle for being just like all the others out there. Well, we still have the best selection of smilies, I think, but that is not much to brag about!

Last Edit: Sept 26, 2013 20:04:22 GMT -6 by Maggie

Deleted
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Islam/Christian differences--Debate thread Sept 26, 2013 20:11:45 GMT -6

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Post by Deleted on Sept 26, 2013 20:11:45 GMT -6

Sept 26, 2013 19:57:49 GMT -6 Maggie said:

I do understand. I had to bite my tongue hard because I fly off the handle too easily and because I like Woodrow and Nabilbb. I like Sky, too and don't understand what she is up to. But this is the first test of our mission. If we don't pass it then we shut up shop, or settle for being just like all the others out there. Well, we still have the best selection of smilies, I think, but that is not much to brag about!

If you like those two then you agree with Islam. Oh my what is their symbol? The Pagan sun god. Wow...that's hard to bust wide open.

Woodrow LI
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Islam/Christian differences--Debate thread Sept 26, 2013 21:02:49 GMT -6

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Post by Woodrow LI on Sept 26, 2013 21:02:49 GMT -6

Sept 26, 2013 20:11:45 GMT -6 @sky said:

Sept 26, 2013 19:57:49 GMT -6 Maggie said:

I do understand. I had to bite my tongue hard because I fly off the handle too easily and because I like Woodrow and Nabilbb. I like Sky, too and don't understand what she is up to. But this is the first test of our mission. If we don't pass it then we shut up shop, or settle for being just like all the others out there. Well, we still have the best selection of smilies, I think, but that is not much to brag about!

If you like those two then you agree with Islam. Oh my what is their symbol? The Pagan sun god. Wow...that's hard to bust wide open.

The crescent and Star are the symbol of the Ottoman Empire. It has nothing to do with Islam. Except since the Turks are Muslim the Europeans associated them as a symbol of Islam

Woodrow LI
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Islam/Christian differences--Debate thread Sept 26, 2013 21:05:47 GMT -6

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Post by Woodrow LI on Sept 26, 2013 21:05:47 GMT -6

Sept 26, 2013 19:49:25 GMT -6 jstwebbrowsing said:

Well we are in agreement that he is not God, but I assume you do not believe he had a prehuman existence at all, which I believe he did. And then there is the ransom sacrifice which I think is the most important difference.

But it would be hard to debate this since we accept different scriptures. I could make the argument that the demands of justice is why a sacrifice was required which is what the Bible teaches. Bible justice is "eye for eye, tooth for tooth, and life for life" and that is why a sacrifice was required. What are your thoughts on that?

As we do not have a mutually accepted source of reference that may be all we could actually debate.

jstwebbrowsing Administrator Posts: 282	Islam/Christian differences--Debate thread Sept 26, 2013 21:10:43 GMT -6 Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by jstwebbrowsing on Sept 26, 2013 21:10:43 GMT -6 Well do you believe that God ever taught "eye for eye" justice?

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Islam/Christian differences--Debate thread Sept 26, 2013 21:19:39 GMT -6

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Post by Deleted on Sept 26, 2013 21:19:39 GMT -6

Sept 26, 2013 21:02:49 GMT -6 Woodrow LI said:

Sept 26, 2013 20:11:45 GMT -6 @sky said:

If you like those two then you agree with Islam. Oh my what is their symbol? The Pagan sun god. Wow...that's hard to bust wide open.

The crescent and Star are the symbol of the Ottoman Empire. It has nothing to do with Islam. Except since the Turks are Muslim the Europeans associated them as a symbol of Islam

Umm, no. This is the flag the symbol of Islam. It's also a Satanic symbol. The Pagan sun god.

Woodrow LI
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Islam/Christian differences--Debate thread Sept 26, 2013 22:46:13 GMT -6

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Post by Woodrow LI on Sept 26, 2013 22:46:13 GMT -6

Sept 26, 2013 21:10:43 GMT -6 jstwebbrowsing said:

Well do you believe that God ever taught "eye for eye" justice?

When I was Christian I thought he did in the OT days.

But now as a Muslim I see and understand what Sharia actually is and find it to be the fairest of all legal processes I have ever been exposed to.

Under actual Shariah There are only 6 crimes or 5 crimes (Three Madhabs name 6 crimes, the Hanafi madhab names 5 ) that require human punishment. The maximum Punishment is named, but the court can give a lesser punishment.

There are a number of Civil crimes that in addition to being a sin to be judged by God restitution has to be paid to the person harmed. the maximum restitution permitted is the value of what was lost. the hurt person can ask forless or even forgive the person. Forgiveness only frees them from human restitution and not from God's Judgement.

This is the part seen as an eye for an eye by non Muslims as the harmed party can ask for exactly what was lost. In Islam murder is not a criminal offense. There is no earthly punishment for murder. All Punishment for murder is left to God. But the person or people harmed by the loss of the murdered person can request restitution up to the right to take the life of the murderer.. the person can ask for much less and even a monetary settlement or even forgive the murderer. There are a few other crimes that are civil rather than criminal charges and as such do not have an earthly punishment. But restitution up to the value of what was lost must be paid.

jstwebbrowsing
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Islam/Christian differences--Debate thread Sept 27, 2013 11:29:39 GMT -6

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Post by jstwebbrowsing on Sept 27, 2013 11:29:39 GMT -6

That's sounds pretty close to eye for eye if people can ask up to the value of what is lost. Of course there is the possibility of forgiveness. But you said that does not square things with God. How do you accomplish that?

Woodrow LI
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Islam/Christian differences--Debate thread Sept 27, 2013 14:35:49 GMT -6

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Post by Woodrow LI on Sept 27, 2013 14:35:49 GMT -6

Sept 27, 2013 11:29:39 GMT -6 jstwebbrowsing said:

That's sounds pretty close to eye for eye if people can ask up to the value of what is lost. Of course there is the possibility of forgiveness. But you said that does not square things with God. How do you accomplish that?

I think I can explain by using a case of theft as an example.

Man A steals $1 from Man B

A sin was committed

A crime was committed

Man B can forgive the man for the crime that was committed against him. Removing the need for Man A to repay the $1

But no man can forgive the sins of another. Man B can not forgive man A's sin of theft. That is between Man A and Allaah(swt)
It is up to man A to be truly repentant of his sin and ask Allaah(swt) for forgiveness. No one can do that for him.

jstwebbrowsing
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Islam/Christian differences--Debate thread Sept 27, 2013 15:24:22 GMT -6

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Post by jstwebbrowsing on Sept 27, 2013 15:24:22 GMT -6

So the main difference concerning God and man from Christianity is still the sacrifice of Jesus. Christians believe that is the basis for forgiveness. I'm sure I don't need to fill you in on that though. And the Witness don't really differ from most Christians on this doctrine that his sacrifice was for Adam's sin. Well not necessarily for the specific sin of eating the fruit but for the sin of losing perfect human life. That is why not just any human sacrifice would work because it had to be a corresponding sacrifice. Life for life, perfect life for perfect life.

To me it is like we all belong to Adam and he is our father, and we have our inheritance from him. However, Christ bought us with his blood so that we no longer belong to Adam but belong to Christ and have our inheritance from him. Christ has become our father so to speak in a similar manner that Adam was our father. Christ is the head of the human family, or basically the patriarch or at least the head of those that obey him. However that does not make him God no more than Adam was God. And while we inherit death from Adam we inherit life from Christ.

What are your thoughts about this?

Last Edit: Sept 27, 2013 15:26:01 GMT -6 by jstwebbrowsing

Woodrow LI
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Islam/Christian differences--Debate thread Sept 29, 2013 11:19:41 GMT -6

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Post by Woodrow LI on Sept 29, 2013 11:19:41 GMT -6

Sept 27, 2013 15:24:22 GMT -6 jstwebbrowsing said:

So the main difference concerning God and man from Christianity is still the sacrifice of Jesus. Christians believe that is the basis for forgiveness. I'm sure I don't need to fill you in on that though. And the Witness don't really differ from most Christians on this doctrine that his sacrifice was for Adam's sin. Well not necessarily for the specific sin of eating the fruit but for the sin of losing perfect human life. That is why not just any human sacrifice would work because it had to be a corresponding sacrifice. Life for life, perfect life for perfect life.

To me it is like we all belong to Adam and he is our father, and we have our inheritance from him. However, Christ bought us with his blood so that we no longer belong to Adam but belong to Christ and have our inheritance from him. Christ has become our father so to speak in a similar manner that Adam was our father. Christ is the head of the human family, or basically the patriarch or at least the head of those that obey him. However that does not make him God no more than Adam was God. And while we inherit death from Adam we inherit life from Christ.

What are your thoughts about this?

I do not believe any sacrifice was or is needed. There is no Ransom to pay as there is no one to pay the Ransom to. And God(swt) does not ask for any sacrifice as he gives his forgiveness freely, we need only ask for it with sincerity and repentance.

jstwebbrowsing Administrator Posts: 282	Islam/Christian differences--Debate thread Sept 29, 2013 12:35:04 GMT -6 Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by jstwebbrowsing on Sept 29, 2013 12:35:04 GMT -6 I think I've asked this before but I cannot recall. Do Muslims believe the Bible's story of Adam's disobedience in the garden?

Woodrow LI
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Islam/Christian differences--Debate thread Sept 29, 2013 13:02:40 GMT -6

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Post by Woodrow LI on Sept 29, 2013 13:02:40 GMT -6

Sept 29, 2013 12:35:04 GMT -6 jstwebbrowsing said:

I think I've asked this before but I cannot recall. Do Muslims believe the Bible's story of Adam's disobedience in the garden?

To a large degree. But most of us do not see being sent to live on earth is/was a punishment. It is our natural place of creation for us to learn what free choice is and what the consequences of it are.

We believe Adam and Eve began in the Garden of Eden in order to gain the tools needed for all of mankind to be able to survive on earth. The Initial school for mankind, call it pre-kindergarten. During that time Adam(PBUH) learned all he needed to pass down the first lessons to all of mankind.

jstwebbrowsing Administrator Posts: 282	Islam/Christian differences--Debate thread Sept 29, 2013 15:04:36 GMT -6 Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by jstwebbrowsing on Sept 29, 2013 15:04:36 GMT -6 So to Muslims was Adam obedient to God or disobedient?

Woodrow LI
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Islam/Christian differences--Debate thread Sept 29, 2013 19:23:46 GMT -6

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Post by Woodrow LI on Sept 29, 2013 19:23:46 GMT -6

Sept 29, 2013 15:04:36 GMT -6 jstwebbrowsing said:

So to Muslims was Adam obedient to God or disobedient?

My understanding is he was disobedient but was repentant and forgiven. His being sent to earth was not as a punishment. Adam is named 25 times in the Qur'an. in 2 Surah. A short synopsis can be gathered from a few ayyats.

But if you ever have time the entire story of Adam can be found in Surat 2 and 3

Here is the short view:

(1) And He taught Adam the names of all things; then He placed them before the angels, and said: "Tell me the names of these if ye are right."

( سورة البقرة , Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #31)
(Arabic, Transliteration, Urdu (Ahmed Ali) , Urdu (Jalandhry) , Yusuf Ali, Shakir, Picthal, Mohsin Khan, French, Spanish, Indonesian, Malay, German, Bosnian, Russian, Tafsir - Jalal ad-Din, Tafsir - King Fahad Quran Complex)
(2) He said: "O Adam! Tell them their names." When he had told them, Allah said: "Did I not tell you that I know the secrets of heaven and earth, and I know what ye reveal and what ye conceal?"

( سورة البقرة , Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #33)
(Arabic, Transliteration, Urdu (Ahmed Ali) , Urdu (Jalandhry) , Yusuf Ali, Shakir, Picthal, Mohsin Khan, French, Spanish, Indonesian, Malay, German, Bosnian, Russian, Tafsir - Jalal ad-Din, Tafsir - King Fahad Quran Complex)
(3) And behold, We said to the angels: "Bow down to Adam" and they bowed down. Not so Iblis: he refused and was haughty: He was of those who reject Faith.

( سورة البقرة , Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #34)
(Arabic, Transliteration, Urdu (Ahmed Ali) , Urdu (Jalandhry) , Yusuf Ali, Shakir, Picthal, Mohsin Khan, French, Spanish, Indonesian, Malay, German, Bosnian, Russian, Tafsir - Jalal ad-Din, Tafsir - King Fahad Quran Complex)
(4) We said: "O Adam! dwell thou and thy wife in the Garden; and eat of the bountiful things therein as (where and when) ye will; but approach not this tree, or ye run into harm and transgression."

( سورة البقرة , Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #35)
(Arabic, Transliteration, Urdu (Ahmed Ali) , Urdu (Jalandhry) , Yusuf Ali, Shakir, Picthal, Mohsin Khan, French, Spanish, Indonesian, Malay, German, Bosnian, Russian, Tafsir - Jalal ad-Din, Tafsir - King Fahad Quran Complex)
(5) Then learnt Adam from his Lord words of inspiration, and his Lord Turned towards him; for He is Oft-Returning, Most Merciful.

( سورة البقرة , Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #37)
(Arabic, Transliteration, Urdu (Ahmed Ali) , Urdu (Jalandhry) , Yusuf Ali, Shakir, Picthal, Mohsin Khan, French, Spanish, Indonesian, Malay, German, Bosnian, Russian, Tafsir - Jalal ad-Din, Tafsir - King Fahad Quran Complex)
(6) Allah did choose Adam and Noah, the family of Abraham, and the family of 'Imran above all people,-

( سورة آل عمران , Aal-e-Imran, Chapter #3, Verse #33)
(Arabic, Transliteration, Urdu (Ahmed Ali) , Urdu (Jalandhry) , Yusuf Ali, Shakir, Picthal, Mohsin Khan, French, Spanish, Indonesian, Malay, German, Bosnian, Russian, Tafsir - Jalal ad-Din, Tafsir - King Fahad Quran Complex)

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Last Edit: Sept 29, 2013 19:25:47 GMT -6 by Woodrow LI

littleboat
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Islam/Christian differences--Debate thread Oct 12, 2013 15:31:27 GMT -6

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Post by littleboat on Oct 12, 2013 15:31:27 GMT -6

One critical distinction is that if a Christian wishes to become a Muslim no one will seek to kill him or her for converting.

Another critical distinction is that a Muslim has no reassurance of salvation.

Christians are not repeatedly encouraged to kill Muslims and Jews by their founder. I am not saying that Christians haven't killed Muslims and Jews, just that they have no mandate from the life of Jesus Christ, nor could one demonstrate how this could be reasonably supported by Jesus Christ's teachings. Jesus demonstrated how to deal with one's enemies in this life and it was not violence.

Allah cannot be known personally, nor can Mohamed, the latter being dead while the former cannot be personally known except through his 'creation'.

Both kingdoms, that of Mohamed and that of Jesus Christ were birthed in blood and physical violence. The chief difference was that it was Jesus's own blood, shed willingly on a cross for us all, and HIS kingdom rose steeped in the blood of Christian martyrs (here 'martyr' means one who lays down his OWN life rather than betray Christ or his brothers and sisters). Mohamed did not shed his own blood for me or anyone, rather his kingdom was born out of slaughter, oppression and and violent compulsion. In Islam martyrs are celebrated for destroying others with their own death. Murdering the 'infidel' is apparently rewarded with sexual pleasure. The very presence of Jesus is the only reward the true Christian seeks, because Jesus' character and personality are so beautiful. His presence IS life!

Last Edit: Oct 12, 2013 15:36:47 GMT -6 by littleboat

Woodrow LI
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Islam/Christian differences--Debate thread Oct 12, 2013 16:34:49 GMT -6

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Post by Woodrow LI on Oct 12, 2013 16:34:49 GMT -6

Oct 12, 2013 15:31:27 GMT -6 littleboat said:

Oct 12, 2013 16:31:27 GMT -5 littleboat said:
One critical distinction is that if a Christian wishes to become a Muslim no one will seek to kill him or her for converting.

Under true Sharia, one that follows one of the Madhabs. It is not permitted to harm a person for leaving Islam.

Another critical distinction is that a Muslim has no reassurance of salvation.

We are told by Allaah(swt) that all who die as a Muslim will enter heaven. While we do not claim we know for certain if we will die as a Muslim, we do know if we do, we are assured Heaven. We also know it is possible for us to leave Islam and loose heaven up until our last breath.

Christians are not repeatedly encouraged to kill Muslims and Jews by their founder. I am not saying that Christians haven't killed Muslims and Jews, just that they have no mandate from the life of Jesus Christ, nor could one demonstrate how this could be reasonably supported by Jesus Christ's teachings. Jesus demonstrated how to deal with one's enemies in this life and it was not violence.

A Fallacy. We are not encoureged to Kill anyone. Muhammad(saws) never commanded us to. neither does the Qur'an.

Allah cannot be known personally, nor can Mohamed, the latter being dead while the former cannot be personally known except through his 'creation'.

I can only speak for myself. I now have a closer Personal Relationship to God(swt) than I ever had during my 45 years as a Christian

Both kingdoms, that of Mohamed and that of Jesus Christ were birthed in blood and physical violence. The chief difference was that it was Jesus's own blood, shed willingly on a cross for us all, and HIS kingdom rose steeped in the blood of Christian martyrs (here 'martyr' means one who lays down his OWN life rather than betray Christ or his brothers and sisters). Mohamed did not shed his own blood for me or anyone, rather his kingdom was born out of slaughter, oppression and and violent compulsion. In Islam martyrs are celebrated for destroying others with their own death. Murdering the 'infidel' is apparently rewarded with sexual pleasure. The very presence of Jesus is the only reward the true Christian seeks, because Jesus' character and personality are so beautiful. His presence IS life!

For this you will have to wait for the return of Jesus(as) and he will personally tell you he is a Muslim and that Muhammad(saws) spread the same message he did.

littleboat
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Islam/Christian differences--Debate thread Oct 12, 2013 20:14:46 GMT -6

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Post by littleboat on Oct 12, 2013 20:14:46 GMT -6

Oct 12, 2013 16:34:49 GMT -6 Woodrow LI said: