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Post by Deleted on Sept 20, 2013 20:26:21 GMT -6
As there are differences of opinion between Christians and Muslims, debate is inevitable as we both believe we are on the right path and the other is in serious error. These debates need not be malicious and can be done with an attitude of Peace. The purpose of this thread is for us to discuss our differences and gain an understanding as to why we have such different views regarding Jesus(as) as that is the major difference between us. I personally believe the two most important questions we have are: Why do Muslims Believe the Qur'an is True? Why do Christians Believe the NT is True? Does anyone desire to start and what do you desire to start with? (The 2 questions are just possibilities, feel free to start with something different) You aren't even a Muslim. You're an American who is pretending.
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Post by Woodrow LI on Sept 20, 2013 21:12:45 GMT -6
As there are differences of opinion between Christians and Muslims, debate is inevitable as we both believe we are on the right path and the other is in serious error. These debates need not be malicious and can be done with an attitude of Peace. The purpose of this thread is for us to discuss our differences and gain an understanding as to why we have such different views regarding Jesus(as) as that is the major difference between us. I personally believe the two most important questions we have are: Why do Muslims Believe the Qur'an is True? Why do Christians Believe the NT is True? Does anyone desire to start and what do you desire to start with? (The 2 questions are just possibilities, feel free to start with something different) You aren't even a Muslim. You're an American who is pretending. Islam is not a Nationality. Muslims come in all Nationalities. Just as Christians do. Whoever says the Shahadah with sincerity is a Muslim. Nearly all Muslims living in the USA are Americans. Just as nearly all Muslims living in China are Chinese. It is of no concern to me if no human considers me to be Muslim as only Allaah(swt) knows for certain who is a Muslim. I can only say I do my best to follow Islam. Just out of Curiosity what do you think a Muslim is?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 20, 2013 22:23:54 GMT -6
You aren't even a Muslim. You're an American who is pretending. Islam is not a Nationality. Muslims come in all Nationalities. Just as Christians do. Whoever says the Shahadah with sincerity is a Muslim. Nearly all Muslims living in the USA are Americans. Just as nearly all Muslims living in China are Chinese. It is of no concern to me if no human considers me to be Muslim as only Allaah(swt) knows for certain who is a Muslim. I can only say I do my best to follow Islam. Just out of Curiosity what do you think a Muslim is? An Islamist?
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Post by Woodrow LI on Sept 20, 2013 23:12:22 GMT -6
Islam is not a Nationality. Muslims come in all Nationalities. Just as Christians do. Whoever says the Shahadah with sincerity is a Muslim. Nearly all Muslims living in the USA are Americans. Just as nearly all Muslims living in China are Chinese. It is of no concern to me if no human considers me to be Muslim as only Allaah(swt) knows for certain who is a Muslim. I can only say I do my best to follow Islam. Just out of Curiosity what do you think a Muslim is? An Islamist? Islamist is an English word. It seems to be a fairly new word developed by the media, they seem to use it as a name for members of "The Islamic Brotherhood" which was originally an Islamic Charity but has now become a political party in Egypt. They also use it as a name for Muslim extremists. Islam is an Arabic word and it is a verb meaning "Submitting to Allaah" a Muslim is a person who does the act of Islam. In other words a person who submits to Allaah(swt) is a Muslim. All people who say they are Muslim are accepted as being Muslim unless they deliberately refuse to do any of the 5 pillars of Islam. All Muslims are obligated to do the 5 pillars of faith. which are: 1. Acknowledge there is only one God(swt) and Muhammad(saws) is his Messenger. 2. Establish Daily prayers and do them to the best of his ability 3. To fast during the Month of Ramadan 4. To give to Charity 5. To make the pilgrimage to Mecca at least once in our lifetime if we are physically and financially able to If a person refuses to do any of the 5 Pillars it is sufficient evidence to say the person is not a Muslim Allaah(swt) also spelled Allah is the Arabic name for God(swt) it is from the same root as the Hebrew word Elihom and the Aramaic words Eli and Elhom. It is also the name for God(swt) used by Arabic Christians. I prefer to use the spelling Allaah(swt) as it is closer to the actual Arabic pronunciation. In Arabic it is spelled with the letters Alif-Lam Lam-Siddah-Alif-Ha. the letters siddah-Alif have a double A pronunciation. the siddah is not an actual letter is is a pronunciation sound meaning the letter after it has a double pronunciation sound. Yes I do read, write and speak Arabic. I speak the Darija Dialect but also write and read the Saudi and Tajweed forms. Although I do better in the Darija dialect.. I read the Qur'an in the original Arabic
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Post by nabilbb on Sept 21, 2013 9:46:27 GMT -6
As there are differences of opinion between Christians and Muslims, debate is inevitable as we both believe we are on the right path and the other is in serious error. These debates need not be malicious and can be done with an attitude of Peace. The purpose of this thread is for us to discuss our differences and gain an understanding as to why we have such different views regarding Jesus(as) as that is the major difference between us. I personally believe the two most important questions we have are: Why do Muslims Believe the Qur'an is True? Why do Christians Believe the NT is True? Does anyone desire to start and what do you desire to start with? (The 2 questions are just possibilities, feel free to start with something different) You aren't even a Muslim. You're an American who is pretending. Sky, you are not a Christian, you are an American
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Post by Maggie on Sept 21, 2013 9:52:37 GMT -6
I would amend the starting point. I would ask, 1. Who is Jesus? 2. Who is Muhammad? I don't think books, per se, can get us where we want to go. For Christians, at least, Jesus comes first. We believe the witness of scripture because we believe in him.
If I look at those two men, I am struck by some rather obvious differences.
Jesus was a man of peace who never killed anyone nor encouraged any one to kill. Muhammad was a successful warrior. Jesus was an itinerant preacher; Muhammad was a successful general whose career is marked by the shedding of the blood of his defeated enemies. After conquering Mecca he entered it on his war horse. Jesus entered Jerusalem on a donkey. Muhammad's entire career was marked with bloodshed. No so the life of Jesus.
So right off the bat, I am faced on the one hand with the familiar conquering warrior of history and legend. On the other, I am faced with the man of peace whose every action was to call sinners to repentance and reconciliation with God-- not enemies to destruction.
When it comes to the books, as I said elsewhere the Qur'an cannot be verified in any way. One must take entirely on faith that it was dictated by an angel. To do so is to put me in the predicament of not being able to rationally reject Mormonism. After all, Joseph Smith's revelations came by way of an angel too. I am not saying that one cannot find the Qur'an compelling. I am not saying that it doesn't contain good teaching. But the world is full of good advice, if only we would take it. Socrates offered plenty of it. So did Confucius. But how would I make up my mind to accept one over the other?
It seems to me that the answer to that will answer the question about which of us is on the right path.
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Post by Woodrow LI on Sept 21, 2013 14:58:16 GMT -6
I would amend the starting point. I would ask, 1. Who is Jesus? 2. Who is Muhammad? I don't think books, per se, can get us where we want to go. For Christians, at least, Jesus comes first. We believe the witness of scripture because we believe in him. If I look at those two men, I am struck by some rather obvious differences. Jesus was a man of peace who never killed anyone nor encouraged any one to kill. Muhammad was a successful warrior. Jesus was an itinerant preacher; Muhammad was a successful general whose career is marked by the shedding of the blood of his defeated enemies. After conquering Mecca he entered it on his war horse. Jesus entered Jerusalem on a donkey. Muhammad's entire career was marked with bloodshed. No so the life of Jesus. So right off the bat, I am faced on the one hand with the familiar conquering warrior of history and legend. On the other, I am faced with the man of peace whose every action was to call sinners to repentance and reconciliation with God-- not enemies to destruction. When it comes to the books, as I said elsewhere the Qur'an cannot be verified in any way. One must take entirely on faith that it was dictated by an angel. To do so is to put me in the predicament of not being able to rationally reject Mormonism. After all, Joseph Smith's revelations came by way of an angel too. I am not saying that one cannot find the Qur'an compelling. I am not saying that it doesn't contain good teaching. But the world is full of good advice, if only we would take it. Socrates offered plenty of it. So did Confucius. But how would I make up my mind to accept one over the other? It seems to me that the answer to that will answer the question about which of us is on the right path. To begin with I do agree Jesus(as) and Muhammad(saws) are different from each other. Muhammad(saws) is very similar to Moses(PBUH) If I was a believer in reincarnation I would be claiming He was a reincarnation of Moses. But reincarnation does not exist so the only conclusion is that Muhammad(saws) is the Prophet Moses(PBUH) said would come. SOURCEThe differences between Muhammad(saws) and Jesus(as) point out vividly that Muhammad(saws) is the Prophet foretold by Moses(PBUH) A side of Muhaamd that is seldom noticed by non-Muslims is his peaceful nature. while he was a military leader, he was a just man and one full of compassion for others. A few examples of the kindness Muhammad(PBUH) taught SOURCEHistorically there have been many lies told about Muhammad(saws) Pope John Paul ll did take a giant step forward in correcting the lies. but sadly his brave words may have Fallen on deaf ears. SOURCEYes Jesus(as) and Muhammad(PBUH) are different from each other. but Muhammad(saws) was not the evil person some Western Historians have tried to portray him as being. Muhammad(saws) was the Prophet foretold by Moses(PBUH) and did what God(swt) commanded him to do.
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Post by Maggie on Sept 21, 2013 17:55:20 GMT -6
We have successful generals who kill down to this day. But they have their troops drop bombs on people; they don't personally run swords through them. I don't say that soldiers are necessarily evil by any means. In my opinion there is such a thing as a just war. I also don't say that Muhammad is evil. But to claim that he is a prophet is to claim that he speaks the Word of God. How can that be? God does not contradict himself. All his prophets pointed the way to Jesus. Jesus is the Word of God; there is no other. He has given proof of that by his death and resurrection.
Why would we turn back to the flawed Old Covenant, when the New Covenant which was promised to Adam and Eve, and to all God's people has come? I don't know on what grounds Muslims reject the death and resurrection of Jesus but I do understand that having done so, other beliefs about how God has acted become possible. But it is a huge jump from what is historically attested to the unverifiable claims of Muhammad. Islam simply doesn't offer a Christian anything. There is no healing of original sin, no reconciliation to God, no personal relationship with God, and no mercy; there is only stern "justice".
Islam is derivative. But what it has derived is all the harsh, punitive, Old Testament dependence on the "law" and not the freedom of the New Covenant--600+ years after Christ's resurrection. We understand that as followers of an Abrahamic religion you are, in some sense, "cousins" and to be received as kin. But a complete reconciliation is not possible, until Jesus returns to judge the living and the dead.
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Post by Woodrow LI on Sept 21, 2013 19:20:03 GMT -6
We have successful generals who kill down to this day. But they have their troops drop bombs on people; they don't personally run swords through them. I don't say that soldiers are necessarily evil by any means. In my opinion there is such a thing as a just war. I also don't say that Muhammad is evil. But to claim that he is a prophet is to claim that he speaks the Word of God. How can that be? God does not contradict himself. All his prophets pointed the way to Jesus. Jesus is the Word of God; there is no other. He has given proof of that by his death and resurrection.
Why would we turn back to the flawed Old Covenant, when the New Covenant which was promised to Adam and Eve, and to all God's people has come? I don't know on what grounds Muslims reject the death and resurrection of Jesus but I do understand that having done so, other beliefs about how God has acted become possible. But it is a huge jump from what is historically attested to the unverifiable claims of Muhammad. Islam simply doesn't offer a Christian anything. There is no healing of original sin, no reconciliation to God, no personal relationship with God, and no mercy; there is only stern "justice".
Islam is derivative. But what it has derived is all the harsh, punitive, Old Testament dependence on the "law" and not the freedom of the New Covenant--600+ years after Christ's resurrection. We understand that as followers of an Abrahamic religion you are, in some sense, "cousins" and to be received as kin. But a complete reconciliation is not possible, until Jesus returns to judge the living and the dead.
again we will have differences of opinion. On a Personal note I have not found any Qur'anic ayyat or Ahadith or historical record that Muhammad ever personally killed anyone. Now to address this comment: I agree 100% with this much. That much is true. Islam offers nothing to a person who worships Jesus(as). One can not worship Jesus(as) and fully submit to Allaah(swt). There is no original sin to heal. We are not responsible for any sins except those we ourself commit after reach the age of accountability (When we know the difference between right and wrong) This part I disagree with: Reconciliation to God(swt) is available to all people. They need only be willing to submit to Him to the best of their ability. As for a personal relationship with God(swt) Islam is all about a personal relationship. Only Allaah(swt) and our self knows if we have truly submitted to him. Our entire live, Words, thoughts and deeds are our constant dialogue with God(swt). We can not escape from God(swt) He is closer to us than our own thoughts. Even the sound of our heart beat (Wallah) (Wallah) My God. My God is a constant reminder we are always talking to God(swt) even if we do not want to. The mercy of Allaah(swt) is beyond measurement. no matter how far we try to separate our self from him he is steadfast in being ready to take us back. Justice is always stern and fair. to be otherwise is not justice. But Justice is something to look forward to not fear unless we know our choices are the path to hellfire. However, we do know that Allaah(swt) is truly just and fully fair. We will receive what has been promised to us. I also agree fully with this But we will disagree over what Jesus(as) will do upon his return. We believe he will lead all people to Islam and testify against those who worshiped him. Once he brings all people to Islam and destroys the Dajal (anti-Christ), we will enter into a time of true Peace before the Resurrection. :
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Post by jstwebbrowsing on Sept 21, 2013 19:27:21 GMT -6
If I look at those two men, I am struck by some rather obvious differences. Jesus was a man of peace who never killed anyone nor encouraged any one to kill. Muhammad was a successful warrior. Jesus was an itinerant preacher; Muhammad was a successful general whose career is marked by the shedding of the blood of his defeated enemies. After conquering Mecca he entered it on his war horse. Jesus entered Jerusalem on a donkey. Muhammad's entire career was marked with bloodshed. No so the life of Jesus. So right off the bat, I am faced on the one hand with the familiar conquering warrior of history and legend. On the other, I am faced with the man of peace whose every action was to call sinners to repentance and reconciliation with God-- not enemies to destruction. This is a little off topic but I must ask a question. While I agree with what you said about Jesus teaching and practicing peace, why do you not apply this same principle to identifying the religion that Jesus started?
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Post by jstwebbrowsing on Sept 21, 2013 19:36:26 GMT -6
Still related but back on topic. Jesus said, "by their fruits you will know them". He was referring to those that worship in "sprit and truth". What fruits was he talking about and who produces these fruits then? Personally I think the love of bloodshed alone, a.k.a. war, disqualifies the vast majority of Muslims and Christians.
I don't know if all Muslims and other Christians believe in "just" man made war, but the majority of both certainly seem to. "Many people are willing to die for their religion and many are willing to kill for their religion but not many are willing to live for their religion" -- unknown
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Post by Woodrow LI on Sept 21, 2013 20:17:36 GMT -6
Still related but back on topic. Jesus said, "by their fruits you will know them". He was referring to those that worship in "sprit and truth". What fruits was he talking about and who produces these fruits then? Personally I think the love of bloodshed alone, a.k.a. war, disqualifies the vast majority of Muslims and Christians. I don't know if all Muslims and other Christians believe in "just" man made war, but the majority of both certainly seem to. "Many people are willing to die for their religion and many are willing to kill for their religion but not many are willing to live for their religion" -- unknown Words to keep in mind. If we all would do that, there would be world Peace.
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Post by jstwebbrowsing on Sept 21, 2013 20:39:58 GMT -6
So if all those that love bloodshed are ruled out then who is left? Many Christian religions preach peace but their followers practice war.
Does the Qua'ran teach peace or war? I know Muslims believe in something similar to the Biblical war of Armageddon, but how is this thought to come about? In the Bible Christ and a heavenly host fight at Armageddon against the "kings of the earth". What about according to Islam? And what about war apart from the war at Armageddon?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 21, 2013 21:18:52 GMT -6
You aren't even a Muslim. You're an American who is pretending. Sky, you are not a Christian, you are an American I am a Gentile believer in the Messiahship of Jesus.
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Post by Woodrow LI on Sept 21, 2013 21:50:10 GMT -6
Sky, you are not a Christian, you are an American I am a Gentile believer in the Messiahship of Jesus. That also describes Muslims. We are Gentiles also (Gentile means a non-Jew) and we also believe Jesus(as) is the Messiah.`
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Post by Woodrow LI on Sept 21, 2013 22:13:40 GMT -6
So if all those that love bloodshed are ruled out then who is left? Many Christian religions preach peace but their followers practice war. Does the Qua'ran teach peace or war? I know Muslims believe in something similar to the Biblical war of Armageddon, but how is this thought to come about? In the Bible Christ and a heavenly host fight at Armageddon against the "kings of the earth". What about according to Islam? And what about war apart from the war at Armageddon? The Qur'an forbids aggression in several places. Self protection is permitted with limitations some of which are force is only to be used if attacked and the force should only be enough to stop the aggressor. In no case are Woman, children, The elderly, disabled or religious clergy to be harmed. (Interesting point as there is no ordained clergy in Islam so that has to be referring to Non-Muslim clergy) War can be declared by a legitimate caliph who has been ordained by Allaah(swt) We do not believe there will be another Caliph until the return of Jesus(as) We do believe that upon the return of Jesus a great battle will come to be, the followers of Jesus and the Mehdi versus the followers of the Darija (the anti Christ) Jesus(as) and the Mehdi will defeat the Darija and his followers and an era of peace will come about.
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Post by jstwebbrowsing on Sept 21, 2013 22:33:00 GMT -6
How do Muslims believe Jesus will return?
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Post by jstwebbrowsing on Sept 21, 2013 22:33:59 GMT -6
Also do Muslims believe in Satan and demons? If so, what is to come of them, and how?
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Post by Woodrow LI on Sept 22, 2013 1:30:03 GMT -6
How do Muslims believe Jesus will return? That is not specified very clearly in the Qur'an. The only thing we know for certain is he will return before Judgement day. He will be with the Mehdi and together they will destroy the Dajal(anti-Christ) He will be a witness at the resurrection and he will bear witness against those who worshipped him. Since the Quran was sent to correct the errors in past scripture and little is said about the resurrection in the Qur'an it appears there was not much error about the Resurrection to be corrected. In the Ahadith Muhammad did discuss the resurrection several times. Overall in regards to the Resurrection what is specifically stated in the Qur'an and ahadith are: :When Allah said, "'Isa, I will take you back and raise you up to Me and purify you of those who are disbelievers. And I will place the people who follow you above those who are disbelievers until the Day of Rising. Then you will all return to Me, and I will judge between you regarding the things about which you differed. (The Holy Qur'an, Chapter 3, Verse 55) Abu Hurairah (ra) narrated that Allah's Messenger, peace be upon him, said, "By the One in Whose hand is my self, definitely the son of Maryam will soon descend among you as a just judge, and he will break the cross, kill the pig and abolish the jizyah, and wealth will be so abundant that no one will accept it, until a single prostration will be better than the world and everything in it. (Sahih al-Bukhari) Jabir ibn 'Abdullah said, "I heard the Prophet, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, saying, 'A party of my ummah will never stop fighting for the truth victoriously until the Day of Rising.' He said, 'Then 'Isa ibn Maryam, peace be upon him, will descend and their amir will say, "Come and lead us in prayer," but he will say, "No! some of you are amirs over others," as Allah's showing honour to this ummah.'" (Sahih Muslim) Abu Hurairah (ra) narrated, "The Prophet, peace be upon him, said: 'There is no prophet between me and him, that is, 'Isa, peace be upon him. He will descend (to the earth). When you see him, recognise him: a man of medium height, reddish fair, wearing two light yellow garments, looking as if drops were falling down from his head though it will not be wet. He will fight the people for the cause of Islam. He will break the cross, kill the pig, and abolish the jizyah. Allah will cause to perish all religions except Islam. He will destroy the Dajjal and will live on the earth for forty years and then he will die. The Muslims will pray over him.'" (Abu Dawud) There is not one of the People of the Book who will not believe in him before he dies; and on the Day of Rising he will be a witness against them. (The Holy Qur'an, Chapter 4, Verse: 159) Not all things revealed to Muhammad(saws) were part of the Qur'an some things were verification of what was already common knowledge and some of these are repeated in the Ahadith. Overall the conclusions Muhammad(saws) and his companions are that Jesus(as) will return at the time the Mehdi and Dajal(anti-Christ) appear on earth and along with the Mehdi the final caliphate will be formed and Jesus(as) along with the Mehdi will destroy the Dajal. The entire world will recognize Jesus(as)At the resurrection Jesus will be a witness against those who worshiped him and will destroy the Cross(ie: Destroy Trinitarian worship)
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Post by Woodrow LI on Sept 22, 2013 1:52:55 GMT -6
Also do Muslims believe in Satan and demons? If so, what is to come of them, and how? Any being with free will is capable of being a Shaytan. Including Humans. A Shaytan is any evil being that tries to lead people away from God(swt). No we do not believe in demons. We do believe there are 3 sapient life forms Angels, Djinn and Humans (There may be more, but those are the only ones God(swt) has told us about). The Angels do not have free will and are not able to sin or do evil. We do belive that Iblis(The Shaytan of the Bible) was a Djinn as he was able to disobey God(swt). Djinn while not physical beings (in our sense of physical) are believed to Be be on earth with us and are mortal, live. marry, have children and die an earthly death. Like humans they can be good or evil(Shaytan) Iblis the first named Shaytan is often simply called "The Shaytan" or "Shaytan". If the name Shaytan is used without specifically referring to someone it is assumed to mean Iblis. While Djinn and Humans normally do not have contact with each other on occasion evil Djinn may be Shaytan and appear to Humans in any form and attempt to lead humans away from God(swt) They have no power over us except what we allow them to have.
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