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Post by Maggie on Aug 20, 2013 19:31:21 GMT -6
The Copts are an ancient Christian sect whose members make up about 10% of Egypt's population. They are the poorest of the poor and eke out a hard-scrabble existence. They have always been subject to periodic abuse and persecution but it has gotten worse with the recent violence. The Times of Israel reports that for the first time in 1600 years a Coptic Church has been forced to cancel Sunday Mass. Churches have been destroyed and nuns seized by militants. I am cautiously hopeful that this senseless violence is going to be reined in. Fox News is now reporting that the Defense Minister has vowed to rebuild the churches: Christians in the Mid-East are an endangered species. Iraq's once thriving Christian community has been totally destroyed and it doesn't look good for any others. The world just doesn't care and raises not the slightest protest. We live in evil times for human rights everywhere.
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Post by Woodrow LI on Aug 21, 2013 3:38:40 GMT -6
I also have sympathy for the Copts. I also believe many Egyptians also do. From your post
Egypt has been an Islamic Nation for at least 1000 years. Yet this is the first time that chuch was damaged. This seems to reflect that this violence is new.
I trace the recent violence primarily to the arrival of the Salafi, a somewhat deviant madhab of Sunni. Extreme fundamentalists and their even more radical offshoot the Wahabbi. They began arriving in Egypt about 6 years ago, Many from the USA. One of the first things they did was gain control of the "Islamic Brotherhood' They were outlawed in Egypt, but that raised an uproar in the media. Morisi was/is a supporter of them
Anyhow when the Salafi entered Egypt all get-out broke loose.
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Post by questionmark on Aug 21, 2013 12:49:12 GMT -6
... this particular church hasn't had to cease mass in a long time.
Lots of other churches have been destroyed, their congregants raped and murdered.
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Post by Woodrow LI on Aug 21, 2013 16:59:25 GMT -6
... this particular church hasn't had to cease mass in a long time. Lots of other churches have been destroyed, their congregants raped and murdered. While that is true. There has not been anything as bad as the past 6 years. The Copts have an interesting history dating back to St Mark. They never were a large group and their era of greatest growth was in the mid 20th century, SOURCE: www.touregypt.net/featurestories/copticchristians.htmToday's level of hostilities are unprecedented. Read more: www.touregypt.net/featurestories/copticchristians.htm#ixzz2ceAmDJR4Sadly the story in the link was a few years ago, during a much better time. Perhaps cooler heads will prevail and Peace will return to the Copts.
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Post by jstwebbrowsing on Aug 21, 2013 22:25:03 GMT -6
Call me a pessimist but I actually look for an increase in religious intolerance and persecution as time goes on, sometimes in subtle ways and sometimes in not so subtle ways.
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Post by Maggie on Aug 22, 2013 0:25:02 GMT -6
Actually, I do too. It is already happening in this country and will continue.
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Post by jstwebbrowsing on Aug 22, 2013 0:34:26 GMT -6
I am just wondering when it's going to affect us personally in some significant way. This country has had it relatively easy so far but tensions are definately building and battle lines are being drawn it seems, slowly but surely. Unfortunately for some, God has is own line drawn in the sand. I'm just not exactly where it is yet. I won't know until I see it crossed probably.
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Post by Woodrow LI on Aug 22, 2013 9:13:19 GMT -6
I am just wondering when it's going to affect us personally in some significant way. This country has had it relatively easy so far but tensions are definately building and battle lines are being drawn it seems, slowly but surely. Unfortunately for some, God has is own line drawn in the sand. I'm just not exactly where it is yet. I won't know until I see it crossed probably. There has been some religious hostilities in the USA ever since the American Revolution. Up until Kennedy there were fairly frequent Anti-Catholic and Anti-Jewish Hostilities some of them violent. One of the worse act of violence against Catholics was in Philadelphia in May of 1844. SOURCEThen there was the KKK which is still active. They are violent not only against Non-whites but also against Jews and Catholics. SOURCE SOURCEWe have had and even continue to have Religious violence and intolerance here in the USA. But the Media concentrates more on international events than what takes place in our own back yard. Here in the US it is often "so called Christians" committing violence against Catholics, Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses and Non-Christians and not "so called Muslims" committing violence against Christians, While we can see religious intolerance in Egypt, we must keep aware that it also happens here. An American Fundamentalist Christian Burning a Catholic Church, Jewish synagogue or Muslim Mosque is no different than a Muslim burning a Coptic Church
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Post by Maggie on Aug 22, 2013 9:21:16 GMT -6
You make excellent points Woodrow. But something new in our times is being added to the mix--our own government(s) is/are actively collaborating in the oppression. I will write more about this later, Right now the world's neediest cat is forcing me to hold him. I can't type with one hand!
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Post by questionmark on Aug 22, 2013 10:28:35 GMT -6
Doesn't bother me too much when churches or mosques are destroyed, but when they injure or kill people then there's probably hell to pay.
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Post by Woodrow LI on Aug 22, 2013 10:57:59 GMT -6
You make excellent points Woodrow. But something new in our times is being added to the mix--our own government(s) is/are actively collaborating in the oppression. I will write more about this later, Right now the world's neediest cat is forcing me to hold him. I can't type with one hand! Sadly as an old Vietnam vet. I am only too much aware of the destruction we have caused by our interferences. Having lived in the Mideast and North Africa I have watched the expanding US Government relationship and support of corrupt dictators We have returned to the Vietnam attitude of "Kill'em all. let God do the sorting" only now we are keeping our hands "clean" by getting others to be our killing machines.
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Post by jstwebbrowsing on Aug 22, 2013 19:09:11 GMT -6
I have much to say on this, but I'll refrain from saying too much. I will say that according to my beliefs the British/American duel world power represent the two heads of the false prophet in Revelation. That's enough to know that, according to my beliefs, they are in a terrible and unholy position.
And yes I agree with Maggie. I certainly don't dismiss things like you mention Woodrow but I look for the antireligios sentiment to continue to grow and infiltrate the government(s)in a really pronounced way. Then it won't be a war of religion versus religion but a war against all religion. I could be mistaken on that detail, but I believe the prophets teach that there lies in the future a significant, or even monumental, governmental attack on religion. My above is just speculation on how it might occur, but it will have to do with the removal of all religion, and will surely be led or provoked by the false prophet.
So if Muslilms view the US as the "great Satan" as I've been told, I would agree except they are more like Satan's prophet to me trying to enforce Satan's rulership over the earth through many powerful works and signs. Now they are losing their religious facade, along with others of their ilk, because the truth is being made known. This is the beginning of God's judgment according to my beliefs.
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Post by Woodrow LI on Aug 23, 2013 8:51:30 GMT -6
I have much to say on this, but I'll refrain from saying too much. I will say that according to my beliefs the British/American duel world power represent the two heads of the false prophet in Revelation. That's enough to know that, according to my beliefs, they are in a terrible and unholy position. And yes I agree with Maggie. I certainly don't dismiss things like you mention Woodrow but I look for the antireligios sentiment to continue to grow and infiltrate the government(s)in a really pronounced way. Then it won't be a war of religion versus religion but a war against all religion. I could be mistaken on that detail, but I believe the prophets teach that there lies in the future a significant, or even monumental, governmental attack on religion. My above is just speculation on how it might occur, but it will have to do with the removal of all religion, and will surely be led or provoked by the false prophet. So if Muslilms view the US as the "great Satan" as I've been told, I would agree except they are more like Satan's prophet to me trying to enforce Satan's rulership over the earth through many powerful works and signs. Now they are losing their religious facade, along with others of their ilk, because the truth is being made known. This is the beginning of God's judgment according to my beliefs. Like many Christians many of us Muslims believe we are in the last days. One of the signs of the last days will be a vast turning against all religion. This will continue until the last Caliphate is established and that will happen with the coming of the Mehdi and the return of Jesus(as) While we do not know when this will happen a good many of the prophecized signs have taken place. There is a listing of what Muhammad(saws) Prophecised as the Minor and Major signs of the last days. Most have already come to pass One of Muhammad(saws)'s Prophecies regarding the last days is taking place today:: SOURCE
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Post by Maggie on Aug 23, 2013 9:54:01 GMT -6
^ Now that is really interesting. I have to spend some time rereading what the 3 of you have said in order to respond to it intelligently but I ran across another report, this time from the Daily Beast, that has me pretty upset. Here is a bit from it. It seems to me a sign of how evil our times are that no one much cares. Most of our own media can't be bothered to tell us about the violence, despite demonstrations by Copts in this country, and our government certainly isn't going to do anything. The Christians quoted are quite clear that this violence is not Muslim vs Christian but Muslim Brotherhood vs Christian (and just about everyone else.) Why will our government not act?
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Post by Woodrow LI on Aug 23, 2013 12:18:04 GMT -6
^ Now that is really interesting. I have to spend some time rereading what the 3 of you have said in order to respond to it intelligently but I ran across another report, this time from the Daily Beast, that has me pretty upset. Here is a bit from it. It seems to me a sign of how evil our times are that no one much cares. Most of our own media can't be bothered to tell us about the violence, despite demonstrations by Copts in this country, and our government certainly isn't going to do anything. The Christians quoted are quite clear that this violence is not Muslim vs Christian but Muslim Brotherhood vs Christian (and just about everyone else.) Why will our government not act? It did about 6 years ago when Egypt tried to forbid the Salafi from entering Egypt on Student and work Visas. I don't remember all the details except there was a big hulabaloo over Egypt refusing to allow some American Salafis into Egypt and confiscated their computers. Big fuss about civil right violations etc and Egypt allowed them in. Their first step was to take control of the "Muslim Brotherhood" in Egypt. Which then became a political entity. I wish I could remember more as I can not find any of the old news stories. This all occurred at about the same time I first accepted Islam. The members of the first Mosque gave me strong warnings about the Salafi movement and how they were targeting and recruiting new Muslims and sending them to Egypt. I never was approached by them but later after I moved North I did find some in Minnesota and South Dakota. All of whom migrated to Egypt. I suspect they are either dead by now or are active terrorists. Fortunately American Converts to Islam turned out to be not all gullible and only a few succumbed to the Salafi. The Movement has pretty well died in the US thanks to most Imams warning new Muslims about them. Looking back it does look like the main goal was to get Salafi followers and move them to Egypt.
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