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Post by Maggie on Aug 19, 2013 17:36:05 GMT -6
There is a silly thread going on at IGI about indulgences which are not very well understood. MeAgain just had some fun telling HE that if he ends up in purgatory, his punishment may consist of having to listen to her teach him Catholic theology for a good part of eternity. Wow. That is harsh. And hilarious! I hope she will join us because if I don't get something right, she will correct me. So I am going to try to describe indulgences accurately but simply.
Purgatory is the destination of those who are being saved but are not yet perfect at the time of death. While all the sins of the saved have been forgiven, justice demands that the temporal punishment they deserve be meted out, if the sin has not been completely atoned for in life. So all who end up there, will spend time having the barnacles scraped off, so to speak.
An indulgence is granted for some special act that helps the person grow spiritually and it pays off in advance a bit of the debt the person in purgatory owes. Indulgences can be earned in many, many ways. They are usually announced after mass or, even, in the bulletin. They can be earned for things like attending World Youth Day (just over in Brazil. Three million people from all over the world attended. It must have been something to be there). Recently, going to a cemetery and praying for the dead every day for 9 days was granted an indulgence.
Indulgences seem very medieval! It is funny that they still conjure up sinister ideas all due to one poor, rather stupid priest, Tetzel. The Church had condemned the practice of selling indulgence or, even, granting them to the dead several hundred years earlier. Somehow Tetzel didn't get the message. He apparently had no bad intentions but he caused grave scandal which we remember to this day. His story is interesting and can be found on Wikipedia.
I will be glad to answer questions on this to the best of my ability.
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Post by jstwebbrowsing on Aug 19, 2013 20:55:16 GMT -6
You'll have to forgive me if this sounds very strange to me. I've heard the word but never knew what it was. So you are saying if you do certain deeds granted by someone that you are basically paying off some of the debt of your sin?
Oh, and who grants it?
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Post by Maggie on Aug 19, 2013 21:28:07 GMT -6
It is an odd and ancient understanding of the Church that envisioned the good deeds, prayers, etc. of the Saints as a sort of stockpile of merits that the Church could draw on to help its people. If I weren't falling asleep right now (and getting a cold, ugh!) I would look it up and get the terminology right. Earning these indulgences off-sets some of the time that the saved would otherwise spend in purgatory. This is possible only because there is some spiritual benefit in doing whatever it is that gains the indulgence which helps make one more fit for heaven.
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Post by jstwebbrowsing on Aug 19, 2013 21:48:46 GMT -6
So is it still in practice?
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Post by Maggie on Aug 20, 2013 6:58:03 GMT -6
Oh yes.
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Post by Woodrow LI on Aug 20, 2013 11:08:38 GMT -6
Indulgences are not as strange as they sound and in some form have a long history in the 4 Abrahamic faiths. It seems to only be missing in some of the American denominations.
Although I believe it is only called indulgences in Catholicism.
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Post by jstwebbrowsing on Aug 20, 2013 15:01:13 GMT -6
From where is this belief derived?
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Post by Woodrow LI on Aug 20, 2013 15:21:22 GMT -6
From where is this belief derived? Just my opinion, in things like the sacrifices done by the Jews. Then in the days of early Christianity the concept of Holy days of obligation where one would be punished for not attending, and rewarded for attending. Also the rewards for good works acknowledged by quite a few Christians. All things that are very similar to indulgences. The Catholic Church simply refined them into indulgences. In Islam and possibly the Sabeeans we have a concept similar to purgatory and that doing some things will reduce the time we spend in the Hellfire. |
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Post by jstwebbrowsing on Aug 20, 2013 17:12:31 GMT -6
This is one of those instances where I strongly disagree. I know Maggie doesn't agree with using the Bible as the final authority but to accept that Christ wanted things to later be added to Christianity is to accept that he left behind an incomplete religion. I just can't do that.
That's not to say I don't believe in good works. I just think that's doing them for the wrong motives. The Bible doesn't present good works as a means to an end. It presents them as an end unto themselves. They are not carried out with a view towards a reward, although a reward will naturally follow. They are carried out because it's the right thing to do. I do not like doctrines that originated after Christ.
I also do not find the concept of a purgatory to be in the Bible. However, I also don't find the concept that people are going to be magically made perfect in heaven like some others believe. What I have found in the Bible is that the 1000 year reign of Christ will function like a purgatory, although I don't consider that an accurate representation of judgement day. During that 1000 years humans will be collectively lifted to perfection, not through punishment but through instruction in righteousness. That is what I've found in the Bible.
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Post by questionmark on Aug 22, 2013 20:45:51 GMT -6
1000 year reign of Christ will function like a purgatory?
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Post by jstwebbrowsing on Aug 23, 2013 1:05:08 GMT -6
1000 year reign of Christ will function like a purgatory? No absolutely not. It's just that is the closet belief JWs have to anything resembling purgatory. They believe that during the 1000 reign the earth itself will be turned into a paradise. The dead, the righteous and the unrighteous, including dead Christians, will be resurrected into this paradise but they won't immediately be perfected. Those that died without any knowledge of God must still make those moral choices. To disallow that is to disallow their free will. They will all be given that opportunity during the 1000 year reign. This includes Christians as well. Witnesses believe mankind will progressively be brought to perfection through the rulership of Christ and the full application of his ransom sacrifice. This is when the blind will begin to see, the lame will begin to walk, etc. The last enemy to be defeated is death. Then with a perfect mankind at the end of the 1000 years, Satan will be let loose a little while. Those that follow Satan will be thrown into the lake of fire along with Satan. Christ will then hand perfected mankind, the kingdom, over to the Father. God's original purpose for the earth will have been fulfilled. Then I have no idea what next but I am sure it will exceed any expectations as will the 1000 year reign itself. wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2012682?q=reign+of+christ&p=par |
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