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Post by Woodrow LI on Aug 19, 2013 16:37:57 GMT -6
While I am going to be speaking mostly about mistaken ideas I had before accepting Islam Feel free to ask questions and even express any disagreements you may have. I am not one who gets upset over disagreement and feel that people can disagree peacefully.
Sadly much of the world sees Islam as portrayed in the Media. But, that is understandable as for many that is the primary source they have available. There are many misconceptions about us, even by some professing to be devout Muslims.
To begin with I want to state up front no Muslim speaks for all Muslims, we are very individualistic and we have no standard means of learning about Islam. Islam is based on personal responsibility and not the teachings of any human. We do not have anything that resembles Bible study. Basically we learn on our own and using the guidence and input from scholars and teachers we have found to be reliable. But at the same time we never stop seeking other sources and do question all thing.
A Qur'anic Teacher does nothing more than to teach a person how to read the Qur'an properly and with proper pronunciation of each word. They do not give interpretations nor discuss meanings. That is something we as individual must determiner and seek reasons to interpret as we do. Yet in spite of our personal interpretations we come to almost unanimous agreement over what we are permitted to do or are forbidden to do.
Now to begin discussing some facts and myths.
1. Muslims believe only Muslims will go to heaven.
True
But we do not know who is a Muslim. We believe a Muslim is a person who sincerely wants to submit to God and follows the teachings of all the Prophets to the best of their ability. I belong to the school of thought that there are probaly many Muslim that do not know they are Muslims and believe they are Christians, Jews etc. Because they are sincerly doing their best ti submit to God and following Islam in accordance with their ability and limitations of their knowledge.
2. Muslims marry through arraigned Marriages.
Some Muslims do, but that is not in accordance with the Qur'an, Sunnah or Ahadith. A marriage is not to be entered into unless both parties are in agreement it is their desire.
3. A man must pay a dowery to the Brides Family.
False. A man must pay a dowery to the wife. The amount and terms of payment are to be agreed upon by both parties in the Nikkah (Marriage contract) before they sign it. Some women ask fo an amount they know will take the husband a lifetime to pay. Most women will agree to let it be paid as as specific amount each year for life, In accordance with Islam if the marriage ends in divorce the husband must immediately pay the woman the full amount. Also in the event of death of the husband the wife must be paid the full amount from the Husbands estate, before any inheritance is calculate.
4. Woman are forbidden to work outside the home
False. But if a woman does work her income is to be hers alone and not to be used for household expenses, which remain the husbands duty no matter how much she earns. A man can not take a woman's earnings as they are hers and for her to use as she desires.
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Post by Maggie on Aug 19, 2013 17:18:40 GMT -6
This is quite interesting and I think it helps enormously when dealing with American Muslims to know this. But there is a political problem in that some millions of Muslims abroad (and perhaps temporarily in this country)are violent and some subset of them are terrorists. As a practical matter, how are westerners to think about that? How do we understand honor killings? (I believe I have read that that is actually a holdover from Bedouin culture.) Forced marriages? Britain is currently dealing with young girls being forced to go back to countries like Pakistan to be married to perfect strangers). The Scandinavian countries had virtually no rape at all, until the Muslims started immigrating. Everywhere they have moved, they have brought crime with them, and often towards women. So 2 and 3 sound like they may be honored here but not everywhere.
Of course, I realize that the burden of fault may lie with the particular culture and not with the religion but, as I say, as a practical matter, it is hard to separate them.
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Post by Woodrow LI on Aug 19, 2013 19:46:08 GMT -6
This is quite interesting and I think it helps enormously when dealing with American Muslims to know this. But there is a political problem in that some millions of Muslims abroad (and perhaps temporarily in this country)are violent and some subset of them are terrorists. As a practical matter, how are westerners to think about that? How do we understand honor killings? (I believe I have read that that is actually a holdover from Bedouin culture.) Forced marriages? Britain is currently dealing with young girls being forced to go back to countries like Pakistan to be married to perfect strangers). The Scandinavian countries had virtually no rape at all, until the Muslims started immigrating. Everywhere they have moved, they have brought crime with them, and often towards women. So 2 and 3 sound like they may be honored here but not everywhere. Of course, I realize that the burden of fault may lie with the particular culture and not with the religion but, as I say, as a practical matter, it is hard to separate them. I agree it is very hard to separate religion and culture. Especially if the violent ones believe they are following their religion and not their culture. However there are a multitude of factors involved, religion is only one thing the immigrants have in common. Some things I see that most of them share. 1. They are mostly from very similar Family roots. 2. Most are from war torn countries and have lived their entire lives in either a war zone or under a corrupt government 3. Most are refugees and did not migrate because they wanted to but because they had to. 4. Most are uneducated and do not have even basic job skills. 5, Most had lost everything they had including family members. 6. They often live in ghetto like conditions with little chance of getting out of the ghetto. A large group of very angry frustrated people looking for something to blame their pain on. As for things like honor killings, Arraigned marriages, etc the vast majority of them are from two nations Pakistan and India and occur among Muslims, Hindus, Yazidi, Druze and Sikhs. Most are from Punjabi ancestors and it appears we are seeing that Punjabi culture is much stronger than religion for some people. |
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Post by jstwebbrowsing on Aug 19, 2013 20:48:29 GMT -6
I watched a debate the other night between Hitchens and an Islamic scholar about if Islam is a peaceful religion. Of course, Hitchens easily pointed out all the violence and tyranny going on in Muslim countries and terrorism.
Hitchens never would acknowledge the theologian's argument which basically boiled down to "political powers use Islam as a tool." The cause he says, is political and not religious. Now I really don't know if this is true or not, but I do know this has happened to Christendom in certain times and in certain places so his argument is believable.
Hitchens did make one point the scholar acknowledged that is something that contributes to the problem. He pointed out that after 9/11 that many Muslims did speak out against the actions. However there is no authority in Islam that can actually stand up and say that was wrong. It seems terrorists have as much religious authority as anyone else in Islam.
What is it in Islam that allows terrorists to think they're doing the right thing by being terrorists? If they are misunderstanding then what is it they are misunderstanding? What makes them be terrorists while you are not?
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Post by questionmark on Aug 20, 2013 9:34:40 GMT -6
Since there is no singular authority in Islam... it's more difficult to say what the Quran teaches. When I was very young I spent a lot of time talking to Muslims and asked them how to interact with Christians. I got answers across the board from Christians are Muslims to Christians should be violently murdered. The difficulty one runs into is that the Quran seems to teach the same broad perspective. I understand as far as textual interpretation goes, that each has its own scenario. However, that makes it very easy for abuses.
I'll give you this, that most of the problems of Islam are actually problems with all people. There may have been no rape in Northern European countries before the Muslims came, but there also wasn't much good there. North Europeans are known for being rich and abusing others but not in their own back yard, for example they used to frequent the child sex slavery capital of the world in droves before it was wiped out by a tsunami.
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Post by Woodrow LI on Aug 20, 2013 10:56:44 GMT -6
Since there is no singular authority in Islam... it's more difficult to say what the Quran teaches. When I was very young I spent a lot of time talking to Muslims and asked them how to interact with Christians. I got answers across the board from Christians are Muslims to Christians should be violently murdered. The difficulty one runs into is that the Quran seems to teach the same broad perspective. I understand as far as textual interpretation goes, that each has its own scenario. However, that makes it very easy for abuses. I'll give you this, that most of the problems of Islam are actually problems with all people. There may have been no rape in Northern European countries before the Muslims came, but there also wasn't much good there. North Europeans are known for being rich and abusing others but not in their own back yard, for example they used to frequent the child sex slavery capital of the world in droves before it was wiped out by a tsunami. You have probably identified the biggest difference between Christianity and Islam. Looking at Islam from a Christian view point we are not an organized religion. Which is true, we are a way of life which we try to make as full submission to God/Allaah(swt). Some guides we use: 1. The Qur'an 2. The Sunnah 3. Ahadith 4. Tafsir of past scholars 5. Guidance of Family 6. Guidance of people we feel know than we do 7. Writing of all Prophets from what ever sources we can find. Primarily what remains of the Tauret(Torah) and The Zaboor(Book of Psalms) We would use the Injil(Gospel of Jesus) if it was ever found but we do not believe it was ever put into writing and disappeared from the oral traditions. 8. The Madhabs (Shariah). The writings of Islamic Jurisprudence, most Sunni believe there are only 4 Madhas possibly 5 those being Hanafi, Hanbli, Shafii, Maliki and Sufi (Sufi is recognized as a Madhab by some, but not all Sunni) The Majority of us do not recognize Salafi/ Wahabbi as Madhabs although they have become accepted and the way of life in Iraq, Some African Nations, strongly influencing Pakistan, Afghanistan and Saudi (Most of the Saud Family follows the Wahhabi Madhab) To gain an understanding of Sharia and what it actually is one needs to study the Madhabs. The Western view has labeled Wahibbiism as Shariah, but it is not recognized as such by most Sunni. Islam is a life of constant learning and doing our best to question all things for accuracy. The only part of Islam that has any resemblance to organized religion is we all follow the same 5 Pillars of Faith, But even then there is no way anyone except the individual konows if he/she is following them. A few related religions that strongly resemble Islam are quite well organized with standard Teachings, central leaders etc Those being NOI--Nation of Islam founded in the USA by Elijah Poole Ahmadiyyat--Founded in Pakistan Shi'ism the primary religion of Iran and led by the Ayatollah Three others to some degree have some Muslim Characteristics and are often mistaken for Muslims by non-Muslims Yazidi Druze Sikh (Although not as often as in the past) |
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Post by questionmark on Aug 20, 2013 19:21:35 GMT -6
I have a suggestion which you might enjoy. Since no Muslims speaks for all Muslims could you try to stop saying 'we'? For instance when you say we believe the Injil has not been found... I have met many Muslims that would disagree, and having personally read the Quran everywhere it refers to Christians or Injil I have also concluded that the Children of the Book are very much here... and I'm one of them :D
The extant copies of the gospels are older by hundreds of years than Mohammed. It becomes a big fish, a very historically big fish, to swallow, to say that the Injil has not been found. The Injil was never lost.
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Post by Woodrow LI on Aug 21, 2013 2:07:07 GMT -6
I have a suggestion which you might enjoy. Since no Muslims speaks for all Muslims could you try to stop saying 'we'? For instance when you say we believe the Injil has not been found... I have met many Muslims that would disagree, and having personally read the Quran everywhere it refers to Christians or Injil I have also concluded that the Children of the Book are very much here... and I'm one of them :D The extant copies of the gospels are older by hundreds of years than Mohammed. It becomes a big fish, a very historically big fish, to swallow, to say that the Injil has not been found. The Injil was never lost. I see your point about it being confusing when I use we. I should point out I follow the Hanafi madhab and do try to keep my replies in accordance with the Hanafi,, While the madhabs are Islamic Jurisprudence and deal more with legal issues followers of a madhab generally have the same or very similar beliefs. Actually nearly all Muslims share about 6 same beliefs those being. Allah Allah is the name of God. Some people ascribe false attributes to Allah. Muslims learn of Allah through what He revealed in the Holy Qura’n or through Prophet Muhammad (e , Salalahu Alihi Wasallam. SAW, peace be upon him). Angels of Allah The angels have been created from light, they obey Allah, carryout His will and have no free will, Angel Gibril (Gabriel) for example brought revelations from Allah to Prophet Muhammad (SAW) and other prophets. Other angels record our deeds or carryout other functions. Books of Allah Allah revealed Books of guidance through his prophets. Muslims believe in all the Original Books of Allah mentioned in the Qura’n, the Tawrat (Turah of Moses), the Zabur (Psalma of David), the Injil (Gospel of Jesus) and Suhuf Ibrahim (the Scrollsof Abraham). The Qura’n is the only book of Allah which exists unchanged in its original form. The other Books are not in their original languages and are distorted and mixed with human words. The Qura’n was recorded as soon as it was revealed and was memorised by heart by Muslims. Messengers of Allah Allah sent prophets and messengers to show people the right path there is no nation to which Allah did not send a prophet as mentioned the Qura’n (35:24). The name of 25 prophets are mentioned in the Qura’n . Example of these prophets are: Adam, Nuh, Ibrahim, Musa, Isa and Muhammad ( Peace be upon them ). All prophets and messengers preached Islam i.e. to surrender to the Will of Allah the One who has no partners. Muhammad (SAW) is the seal of prophets (Qura’n 33:40). Al Qadar Allah has given man a free will. He does not force man to obey or disobey. Allah, The fact Allah knows what we are going to do does not mean that we do not have free will, knows whether man will obey or disobey. Akhirah Life on earth is meant to be a preparation for the Akhirah (life after death) Life is meaningless if people of good actions are not rewarded and people of bad conduct are not punished at the Day of Judgement. Muslim believers will be rewarded for their good actions by admitting them to Janah (Paradise) Wrong-doers and unbelievers will be punished in Annar ( Hell Fire ). In the books myself and every Muslim I know do not believe the Injil is the same as the Gospels in the NT but were a revelation given to Jesus very similar to the Qur'an. Some of us myself included have doubts that the Suhuf Ibrahim (the Scrollsof Abraham) ever existed. |
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Post by questionmark on Aug 21, 2013 13:13:26 GMT -6
How does that work if you believe the testimony of Jesus was not in a book yet Christians are called People of the Book?
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Post by Woodrow LI on Aug 21, 2013 15:30:57 GMT -6
How does that work if you believe the testimony of Jesus was not in a book yet Christians are called People of the Book? Christians do come from the same Abrahmic line as Jews, Sabeeans and Muslims. They worship the same God(swt) who revealed himself through Adam, Moses. Abraham and all the Prophets. There was only one message sent and it was sent through Moses. David. Jesus and Muhammad (Peace be upon all of them) I might believe you got the message messed up, but the Christians still originated from the same message. (Book) |
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