Post by jstwebbrowsing on Mar 14, 2014 11:19:36 GMT -6
I understand you guys may not wish to banter back and forth very long about this doctrine and while I don't agree, I will accept it. I know Catholics in particular don't like to discuss the trinity in any way that resembles a debate. However, my goal is not to debate but to understand. I mean, if the trinity is true then I want to believe it. I've read a lot of material about it, but I've only learned so much because I can't ask questions and receive direct answer.
So Francis this probably will fall on you, if you choose to take up the task. I would like to engage you about it because you seem to have a very thorough understanding of things, including scripture and history, and are very meticulous about putting your thoughts into words. Of course if anyone else has anything to add then by all means feel free to share.
First let me explain my understanding of scripture and what I do and don't believe. First I believe that Jesus is God's only begotten son. To me this means that Jesus is Jehovah's only spiritual son, begotten personally by God. I believe that Jesus created all the rest of the angels, the material universe and everything else that was created, using God's spirit.
I also believe that Jesus was begotten in a special way at his baptism. I believe at this time that Jesus was the first to be begotten into God's kingdom, he being anointed directly by God as it's king. From then, Jesus has anointed all other persons using God's spirit. However I view that kingdom as different from God's universal kingdom and his universal rulershiop that has always existed. My understanding is that this kingdom is a kingdom that is particularly related to God's earthly creatures and not necessarily by who, but how will they be ruled. God himself will be it's ruler as he always has been, but this kingdom represents a special rulership for this earth.
I believe since being begotten by God that Jesus has been a seperate and distinct person with his own free will and the capability of disobediance to God. I do believe that after his resurrection that he was exalted to an even higher position than he was before. Other than ruling for God for 1000 years Jesus was granted immortality. That is, life of his own that is no longer dependant on God for it's continuance. And he has been granted a gaurantee that God will never destroy him. He has more than just everlasting life. He is incorruptible, and indestructible like God himself, however still in submission to the will of God because he was made God's will his own. I believe that God granted him this because of his own faithfulness to the will of God that he exercised freely and perfectly of his own accord.
So really I don't think my beliefs are all that different that trinitarian except I don't believe Jesus is God himself and I believe Jesus has always had a seperate and free will. Yes, he has the nature of God, that is, divinity, and incorruptibility but he is not the person of God. I believe Jesus was the creator but I think Jehovah was the inventor. Jesus was his master craftsman.
I know there are scriptures that say God and Jesus are one. But I think that is tied to Jesus' own faithfulness and is caused by his own free will. I think the mystery of the trinity is summed up in this scripture. "And the glory which thou hast given me I have given unto them; that they may be one, even as we are one" (John 17:22)
When Christians adopt the teachings of Jesus into their life they become one with him. One in nature, but not one in person. I know trinitarians say that God is three persons, but then they seem to proceed to take away any distinction between the two persons of father and son. and really thereby deny any free will that Jesus may have had, which to me makes his faithfulness of lesser import.
I do not believe holy spirit is a person. I think the scriptures personify it, but I think it is a force, or an influence even, that is exerted by God and not a third person. When Jesus created the earth I don't think he commanded a third person to create it. I believe holy sprit is God's power and Jesus used God's power to create the earth. Otherwise it seems like they are just passing the buck. God tells Jesus to do it and Jesus tells the holy spirit to do it. It makes much more sense to me that holy spirit is a way in which God's power is exerted.
As far as when Jesus was begotten that's a different story. From eternity is the answer I think, but I struggle to grasp what that really means. To us, if Jesus had a beginning then there must have been a point in time that he was created. But I don't think that's what it means. I don't think God or eternity is affected by time. If time were a river then God and eternity are not in that river. I cannot explain it well, but while I think Jesus had a beginning, I don't think it was a moment in time, at least not in the way we experience time.
Any thoughts?
So Francis this probably will fall on you, if you choose to take up the task. I would like to engage you about it because you seem to have a very thorough understanding of things, including scripture and history, and are very meticulous about putting your thoughts into words. Of course if anyone else has anything to add then by all means feel free to share.
First let me explain my understanding of scripture and what I do and don't believe. First I believe that Jesus is God's only begotten son. To me this means that Jesus is Jehovah's only spiritual son, begotten personally by God. I believe that Jesus created all the rest of the angels, the material universe and everything else that was created, using God's spirit.
I also believe that Jesus was begotten in a special way at his baptism. I believe at this time that Jesus was the first to be begotten into God's kingdom, he being anointed directly by God as it's king. From then, Jesus has anointed all other persons using God's spirit. However I view that kingdom as different from God's universal kingdom and his universal rulershiop that has always existed. My understanding is that this kingdom is a kingdom that is particularly related to God's earthly creatures and not necessarily by who, but how will they be ruled. God himself will be it's ruler as he always has been, but this kingdom represents a special rulership for this earth.
I believe since being begotten by God that Jesus has been a seperate and distinct person with his own free will and the capability of disobediance to God. I do believe that after his resurrection that he was exalted to an even higher position than he was before. Other than ruling for God for 1000 years Jesus was granted immortality. That is, life of his own that is no longer dependant on God for it's continuance. And he has been granted a gaurantee that God will never destroy him. He has more than just everlasting life. He is incorruptible, and indestructible like God himself, however still in submission to the will of God because he was made God's will his own. I believe that God granted him this because of his own faithfulness to the will of God that he exercised freely and perfectly of his own accord.
So really I don't think my beliefs are all that different that trinitarian except I don't believe Jesus is God himself and I believe Jesus has always had a seperate and free will. Yes, he has the nature of God, that is, divinity, and incorruptibility but he is not the person of God. I believe Jesus was the creator but I think Jehovah was the inventor. Jesus was his master craftsman.
I know there are scriptures that say God and Jesus are one. But I think that is tied to Jesus' own faithfulness and is caused by his own free will. I think the mystery of the trinity is summed up in this scripture. "And the glory which thou hast given me I have given unto them; that they may be one, even as we are one" (John 17:22)
When Christians adopt the teachings of Jesus into their life they become one with him. One in nature, but not one in person. I know trinitarians say that God is three persons, but then they seem to proceed to take away any distinction between the two persons of father and son. and really thereby deny any free will that Jesus may have had, which to me makes his faithfulness of lesser import.
I do not believe holy spirit is a person. I think the scriptures personify it, but I think it is a force, or an influence even, that is exerted by God and not a third person. When Jesus created the earth I don't think he commanded a third person to create it. I believe holy sprit is God's power and Jesus used God's power to create the earth. Otherwise it seems like they are just passing the buck. God tells Jesus to do it and Jesus tells the holy spirit to do it. It makes much more sense to me that holy spirit is a way in which God's power is exerted.
As far as when Jesus was begotten that's a different story. From eternity is the answer I think, but I struggle to grasp what that really means. To us, if Jesus had a beginning then there must have been a point in time that he was created. But I don't think that's what it means. I don't think God or eternity is affected by time. If time were a river then God and eternity are not in that river. I cannot explain it well, but while I think Jesus had a beginning, I don't think it was a moment in time, at least not in the way we experience time.
Any thoughts?
