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Post by jstwebbrowsing on Apr 1, 2014 13:33:21 GMT -6
I have to disagree.
(Je·ho′vah) [the causative form, the imperfect state, of the Heb. verb ha·wah′ (become); meaning “He Causes to Become”].
The personal name of God. (Isa 42:8; 54:5) Though Scripturally designated by such descriptive titles as “God,” “Sovereign Lord,” “Creator,” “Father,” “the Almighty,” and “the Most High,” his personality and attributes—who and what he is—are fully summed up and expressed only in this personal name.—Ps 83:18.
"That they may know that thou alone, whose name is Jehovah, Art the Most High over all the earth." (Psalm 83:18)
His self-designated name identifies him as the one who causes his purposes to become reality. Now I know many other names are fitting, but this is his own self-designated name and it does accurately, I think, represent who and what he is.
Even if on one were to disagree with that, then there is still the point that this is his own self-designated name. He said it would be his name forever, and a memorial to him for all generations. He has not said that about any other name applied to him in the Book of Moses, or throughout the rest of the Bible.
So I don't understand how Christians or Muslims get around that. It doesn't seem very open to interpretation either. He certainly never changed his name to Jesus and there is no record of it in the Book of Moses being changed to Allah. I think most of the other names used describe what he is but not who he is.
And while Elohim is fine to use, how does that override Exodus 3:15 or mean that the name YHWH should fall into disuse?
Is it not true the Jews treated this as the holiest of all names?
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Post by Woodrow LI on Apr 1, 2014 15:48:36 GMT -6
I have to disagree. (Je·ho′vah) [the causative form, the imperfect state, of the Heb. verb ha·wah′ (become); meaning “He Causes to Become”]. The personal name of God. (Isa 42:8; 54:5) Though Scripturally designated by such descriptive titles as “God,” “Sovereign Lord,” “Creator,” “Father,” “the Almighty,” and “the Most High,” his personality and attributes—who and what he is—are fully summed up and expressed only in this personal name.—Ps 83:18. "That they may know that thou alone, whose name is Jehovah, Art the Most High over all the earth." (Psalm 83:18) His self-designated name identifies him as the one who causes his purposes to become reality. Now I know many other names are fitting, but this is his own self-designated name and it does accurately, I think, represent who and what he is. Even if on one were to disagree with that, then there is still the point that this is his own self-designated name. He said it would be his name forever, and a memorial to him for all generations. He has not said that about any other name applied to him in the Book of Moses, or throughout the rest of the Bible. So I don't understand how Christians or Muslims get around that. It doesn't seem very open to interpretation either. He certainly never changed his name to Jesus and there is no record of it in the Book of Moses being changed to Allah. I think most of the other names used describe what he is but not who he is. And while Elohim is fine to use, how does that override Exodus 3:15 or mean that the name YHWH should fall into disuse? Is it not true the Jews treated this as the holiest of all names? While it is true that YHWH is the holiest of names it is not Jehovah. Jehovah does not appear in Jewish scripture. As the Jews stopped pronouncing the name YHWH we do not how it was pronounced the pronunciation Jehovah is a 13th Century Christian pronunciation. About the 13th century the term "Jehovah" appeared when Christian scholars took the consonants of "Yahweh" and pronounced it with the vowels of "Adonai." This resulted in the sound "Yahowah," which has a Latinized spelling of "Jehovah." The first recorded use of this spelling was made by a Spanish Dominican monk, Raymundus Martini, in 1270. SOURCEIn Hebrew it is actually YHVH. I found a good Jewish site that explains it, but the pages can't be copied. Here is a link to it. linkWhile the Name Allaah(swt) contains all the attributes of God(swt) we do not know all of them. However the Qur'an does contain 99 names are are contained within the name Allaah These can be read in English HERE
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Post by jstwebbrowsing on Apr 4, 2014 13:56:34 GMT -6
I can see that a lot of effort was put into that name and that's admirable and I don't see a problem with it relatively speaking, but did God himself say his name was Allaah? Did he say it would be his name forever and a memorial to him for all generations? Why don't muslims use YHWH? Here are some points about the name YHWH. "The Codex Leningrad B 19A, of the 11th century C.E., vowel points the Tetragrammaton to read Yehwah′, Yehwih′, and Yeho·wah′. Ginsburg’s edition of the Masoretic text vowel points the divine name to read Yeho·wah′. (Ge 3:14, ftn) Hebrew scholars generally favor “Yahweh” as the most likely pronunciation. They point out that the abbreviated form of the name is Yah (Jah in the Latinized form), as at Psalm 89:8 and in the expression Ha·lelu-Yah′ (meaning “Praise Jah, you people!”). (Ps 104:35; 150:1, 6) Also, the forms Yehoh′, Yoh, Yah, and Ya′hu, found in the Hebrew spelling of the names Jehoshaphat, Joshaphat, Shephatiah, and others, can all be derived from Yahweh. Greek transliterations of the name by early Christian writers point in a somewhat similar direction with spellings such as I·a·be′ and I·a·ou·e′, which, as pronounced in Greek, resemble Yahweh. Still, there is by no means unanimity among scholars on the subject, some favoring yet other pronunciations, such as “Yahuwa,” “Yahuah,” or “Yehuah.”" wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1200002391
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Post by Woodrow LI on Apr 4, 2014 16:41:37 GMT -6
I can see that a lot of effort was put into that name and that's admirable and I don't see a problem with it relatively speaking, but did God himself say his name was Allaah? Did he say it would be his name forever and a memorial to him for all generations? Why don't muslims use YHWH? Here are some points about the name YHWH. "The Codex Leningrad B 19A, of the 11th century C.E., vowel points the Tetragrammaton to read Yehwah′, Yehwih′, and Yeho·wah′. Ginsburg’s edition of the Masoretic text vowel points the divine name to read Yeho·wah′. (Ge 3:14, ftn) Hebrew scholars generally favor “Yahweh” as the most likely pronunciation. They point out that the abbreviated form of the name is Yah (Jah in the Latinized form), as at Psalm 89:8 and in the expression Ha·lelu-Yah′ (meaning “Praise Jah, you people!”). (Ps 104:35; 150:1, 6) Also, the forms Yehoh′, Yoh, Yah, and Ya′hu, found in the Hebrew spelling of the names Jehoshaphat, Joshaphat, Shephatiah, and others, can all be derived from Yahweh. Greek transliterations of the name by early Christian writers point in a somewhat similar direction with spellings such as I·a·be′ and I·a·ou·e′, which, as pronounced in Greek, resemble Yahweh. Still, there is by no means unanimity among scholars on the subject, some favoring yet other pronunciations, such as “Yahuwa,” “Yahuah,” or “Yehuah.”" wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1200002391 The Qur'an uses Allaah 2181 time. It never uses YHWH Side Note many translations use the spelling Allah I prefer the Allaah as that is closer to the Arabic pronunciation and is not as easily confused with Al-Lah which is something different. The confusion Does not occur in Arabic as there are considerable differences in the spelling between Allaah and Al-Lah
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Post by jstwebbrowsing on Apr 5, 2014 14:01:08 GMT -6
The name YHWH is used 6,810 times throughout the Hebrew scriptures. So one major difference between the prophets of the Bible and the Koran is that they all, without exception, spoke in the name of YHWH whereas Muhammed did not. Jesus himself said he came in his father's name and taught his followers to pray for the sanctification of it. And while apparantly many people think Jesus must have followed the Jewish superstition of his name being too holy to pronounce, I don't believe he did. At any rate, to me that is a major difference that concerns me and it was an issue I wanted to press you on because probably you have never thought about it.
I'm not here to debate however. Unless you have something else to add I will continue with some further questions.
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Post by Woodrow LI on Apr 5, 2014 16:33:23 GMT -6
From the Jewish perspective: LINKWhat the Jews used 6,810 times is YHVH
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Post by jstwebbrowsing on Apr 5, 2014 17:41:08 GMT -6
I am aware. I do not think it is necessary to pronounce it in the same way the ancient Hebrews did. I don't pronouce any of the Hebrew names as the ancient Hebrews did. While I don't think the name should be idolized which is what the Hebrews seem to have done and still do, it is a prominant part of Hebrew scripture, including the Book of Moses and I think it should be recognized and acknowledged.
"and I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, as God Almighty; but by my name Jehovah I was not known to them." (Ex 6:3 KJV) Here he recognizes another name as belonging to him, but he distinguishes Jehovah from it.
Also, the Jews are the ones that lost the name of God. I am skeptical that they should be considered an authority on matters pertaining to when, if, and how it should be used.
So what I really don't understand is if Muslims are supposed to worship the same God, how come he doesn't have the same name or why it does not at all appear in the Koran when he clearly said that would be his name forever and it was used by every Hebrew prophet.
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Post by jstwebbrowsing on Apr 6, 2014 19:45:46 GMT -6
Woodrow if I have offended you then I apologize. We can talk about something else.
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Post by Woodrow LI on Apr 6, 2014 20:51:07 GMT -6
I am aware. I do not think it is necessary to pronounce it in the same way the ancient Hebrews did. I don't pronouce any of the Hebrew names as the ancient Hebrews did. While I don't think the name should be idolized which is what the Hebrews seem to have done and still do, it is a prominant part of Hebrew scripture, including the Book of Moses and I think it should be recognized and acknowledged. "and I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, as God Almighty; but by my name Jehovah I was not known to them." (Ex 6:3 KJV) Here he recognizes another name as belonging to him, but he distinguishes Jehovah from it. Also, the Jews are the ones that lost the name of God. I am skeptical that they should be considered an authority on matters pertaining to when, if, and how it should be used. So what I really don't understand is if Muslims are supposed to worship the same God, how come he doesn't have the same name or why it does not at all appear in the Koran when he clearly said that would be his name forever and it was used by every Hebrew prophet. I think you summed it up here: " Also, the Jews are the ones that lost the name of God. " The Qur'an has corrected what has been lost and in it Allaah(swt) is what he has used.
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Post by Woodrow LI on Apr 6, 2014 20:53:03 GMT -6
Woodrow if I have offended you then I apologize. We can talk about something else. No problem. I have not been offended.
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Post by jstwebbrowsing on Apr 12, 2014 13:24:38 GMT -6
I must be honest. The violence that is common among Muslims makes it hard for me to believe they believe anything close to what Jesus taught. If there is any element of truth that can come from the gospels it's that Jesus was not violent and never did he instruct his disciples to be violent. To me, it's like Muslims are trying to relive the Old Testament in some manner. If I go by what I see, I do not conclude Muslims have God's best interests at heart. However this doesn't apply only to Muslims but to any of those that practice violence in the name of God. This is my perspective.
If you'd like to share your perspective, I'd be glad to hear it.
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Post by nabilbb on Apr 14, 2014 10:09:11 GMT -6
if I may comment here jst. I am not sure what is the violence you are talking about! are you talking about Muslims who do violent acts or Islam teaching us to be violent! if you are talking about people, I have no problem with that, there are good and bad Muslims as it is the case with every religion. but If you are talking about Islam being a violent Religion, I will ask you to show me verses from the Quran of Hadith proving this
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Post by jstwebbrowsing on Apr 14, 2014 15:49:07 GMT -6
No I am talking about people. But there seems to be so many of them doing violence in the name of Islam that it leads me to believe Islam may itself be a violent religion. What verses of the Quran do these violent Muslims quote to support their violence? What verses in the Quran show that their violence is wrong? Where do some of these Muslims get the idea that being a martyr means killing themselves and others?
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Post by jstwebbrowsing on Apr 14, 2014 15:52:02 GMT -6
Violent Christians for example, I don't agree with but I understand their reasonings, at least a little. I don't understand the reasonings of violent Muslims and it seems to be much more common among Muslims.
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Post by nabilbb on Apr 15, 2014 15:05:27 GMT -6
I agree with you jst. violence is much obvious in Muslims, but this has a reason for one
The occupation of Palestine and the support of the west in General and America for that occupation - So a Palestinian who grew up watching his parents being kicked, insulted and killed, his sister being raped and killed can't be asked about the reason of his violence to the west
the same case in Iraq, Afghanistan, and many Muslims countries. mostly this violence is a result of politics more that it is religious
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Post by Woodrow LI on Apr 16, 2014 20:55:16 GMT -6
I agree with you jst. violence is much obvious in Muslims, but this has a reason for one The occupation of Palestine and the support of the west in General and America for that occupation - So a Palestinian who grew up watching his parents being kicked, insulted and killed, his sister being raped and killed can't be asked about the reason of his violence to the west the same case in Iraq, Afghanistan, and many Muslims countries. mostly this violence is a result of politics more that it is religious All true. One problem is the perception non-Muslims have of Islam. While the Western world has much more violence it is labelled a crime and not a teaching of Christianity. While if a Muslim commits a crime the non-Muslims quickly jump to the conclusion it is a teaching of Islam. It is a very difficult task to train a soldier to kill. No sane person has the desire to kill another human. To get a soldier to kill, the killing must be shown to be justified and there is no other choice. A common military tactic, dehumanize the enemy. Typically that is done by teaching the soldiers that the "enemy" is an inhuman incapable of doing good because of the way they were raised. The US has been training soldiers to specifically kill Muslims for over 14 years now, while most has taken place since 9/11 it dates back to Iraq and Saddam But the 19 perpetrators of 9/11 have, to the Western World, become symbolic of all Muslims to many non-Muslims. It makes no difference that was the only incident any Muslims have flown aircraft into buildings you will still hear "But, Christianity does not teach Christians to fly airplanes into buildings" There are people who do believe we are all trained to to be suicide bombers. There actually are non-Muslims who believe we are taught that if we get killed as a suicide bomber we will go heaven and be given 72 Virgins. Seriously there are non-Muslims who believe that about us. It is a totally rediculous idea, as evey Muslim knows suicide is a certain path to hellfire. Also every Muslim knows that even in war we are not to harm innocent people. We are not even to harm trees or live stock. But lies get spread, and people do believe the lies about us.
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Post by Maggie on Apr 17, 2014 6:30:37 GMT -6
The problem is that I have never seen a Muslim speak out forcefully against Muslim violence. I have never seen a Muslim speak out forcefully against honor killings, or march in protest against such matters. While it is very easy to believe in the peaceful ways of individuals, (I and I suppose others here know such people in real life), the public perception is one that Muslims as a whole have done nothing to change. You (all) allow terrorist enablers like CAIR to go unchallenged. Muslims are demanding sharia law in places where they dominate, like Michigan and that is a horror I do not want to see in this country. Again, where is the Muslim protest of such a thing?
Just last week we saw Brandeis withdraw its invitation to come and receive an honorary degree from Ayaan Hirsi Ali who has a lot to say about Muslim violence which she experienced personally. The reason? Her criticisms of Islam are divisive.
I would definitely like to see a more proactive, peaceful Muslim community make its voice heard. But we have been waiting a long time, if we use 9/11 as a starting point.
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Post by Woodrow LI on Apr 17, 2014 13:00:52 GMT -6
The problem is that I have never seen a Muslim speak out forcefully against Muslim violence. I have never seen a Muslim speak out forcefully against honor killings, or march in protest against such matters. While it is very easy to believe in the peaceful ways of individuals, (I and I suppose others here know such people in real life), the public perception is one that Muslims as a whole have done nothing to change. You (all) allow terrorist enablers like CAIR to go unchallenged. Muslims are demanding sharia law in places where they dominate, like Michigan and that is a horror I do not want to see in this country. Again, where is the Muslim protest of such a thing? Just last week we saw Brandeis withdraw its invitation to come and receive an honorary degree from Ayaan Hirsi Ali who has a lot to say about Muslim violence which she experienced personally. The reason? Her criticisms of Islam are divisive. I would definitely like to see a more proactive, peaceful Muslim community make its voice heard. But we have been waiting a long time, if we use 9/11 as a starting point. Although there are constant protests by Muslims against violence committed by people wearing the name of Muslim, it is rare it ever gets media attention. But if needed I can produce thousands of such protests. One difficulty is here in the USA there are very few Islamic Communities, there are only about 2 Million of us and except for 6 states we are scattered. For example my nearest Muslim neighbor is 124 miles away. here it would be almost impossible to gather a noticeable crowd of Muslims. We just do not have the population density to gather much attention. The majority of the anti-violence protests take place in non-English speaking Nations and seldom get noticed in English language media. But the protest are there A few starters linklinklinklinklinkHonor killings are epidemic in Pakistan, India and Afghanistan. Although they all have what people consider Muslim names many are by Non-Muslims. Honor Killings are quite common among the Punjabi and Pashtun and are carried out by Punjabi/Pashtun of any faith not just Muslims. For example: SOURCEThat is neither Christian nor Muslim, but is common among Punjabi of any Faith.
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Post by jstwebbrowsing on Apr 17, 2014 13:14:46 GMT -6
I don't even understand why the problems with Palestine continue. It's like everyone wants a piece of it and they're willing to do anything necessary to get it.
Also I know the West is not innocent but I understand it. Take Israel for example. I'm sure the government supports them for militarily strategic reasons. But there are a lot of Christians in this country that believe, contrary to the Bible, that Israel over in the middle east is still God's chosen nation. Therefore to them, anyone that is an enemy of Israel is an enemy of God.
But what I am trying to figure out is the reasonings behind the Muslims they oppose. To many Muslims they are fighting a holy war. Why?
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Post by Woodrow LI on Apr 17, 2014 17:12:27 GMT -6
I don't even understand why the problems with Palestine continue. It's like everyone wants a piece of it and they're willing to do anything necessary to get it. Also I know the West is not innocent but I understand it. Take Israel for example. I'm sure the government supports them for militarily strategic reasons. But there are a lot of Christians in this country that believe, contrary to the Bible, that Israel over in the middle east is still God's chosen nation. Therefore to them, anyone that is an enemy of Israel is an enemy of God. But what I am trying to figure out is the reasonings behind the Muslims they oppose. To many Muslims they are fighting a holy war. Why? Have to keep in mind, Gaza is much like a c\oncentration camp. There is no work there is no free passage in and out of Gaza. There is no way to control the radicals that keep making home made rockets and fire them at Israel, each time Israel retaliating with massive air strikes. The West bank is a bit better. but illegal Israeli settlers keep building and taking land. Olive trees that have been in the same family for over 1000 years have been bulldozed down to make Israeli settlements. It is not a religious issue as even the Christian and Jewish Palestinians are opposed to Israel Although Israel did manage to evict all the Jewish Muslims out of Gaza there still are some in the West bank. there are quite a few Christine Palestinians left in Gaza and the West Bank, but like the Palestinian Jews many have migrated to Arab Nations. Last I looked Gaza was about 10% Christian Palestinians and 20% for the west Bank. Prior to 1946 the Palestinians were about 75% Muslim and the remainder Christian and Jewish. Nearly all Palestinians have Jewish Ancestors that converte to Islam about 1000 years ago. It is not a Jewish/Muslim issue it is a Palestinian/Israel issue. Many of the Arab Jews did not desire the Nation of Israel to be formed and feel it is against Judaism as the third temple has not been built. Israel has become predominately Ashkanazi Jewish instead of Hebrew, many of whom are non-practicing and about 30% are atheist. Jews in Israel protesting Zionism SOURCE
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