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Post by thehurtbox on Jan 31, 2014 11:11:55 GMT -6
Been a while since I've been here. For the past month or so I feel like in general I'm not sure where I stand in terms of my faith. I started off just being really angry at God about the lack of involvement it seemed that he had in my life and the lives of others. I moved from that to being a blasphemous skeptic and then from that just tried not to worry about it anymore. Recently I've been telling people what I've been going through and it got me to start thinking about my faith more often. Long story short I reached a point where I realized that my anger towards God wasn't justified because I wasn't exactly praising him when things were good so it's really just not fair to focus so much on the bad but not the good.
Still however, I don't really consider myself a Christ follower right now. No matter how much I want to play the skeptic I can still see reasons for belief I'm just not there right now. I can still respect Christianity on an intellectual level and I've still sometimes talk to people from the perspective of someone trying to defend it as a worldview. But I have no relationship with the God behind it. I have incentives to pray if things seem beyond my control but I still don't feel like there's anything that's particularly Christian about me.
I understand that everyone has doubts but I've never experienced them as an outsider of the faith before. When I was a Christian in my best moments I could just trust that God is good and he may bring me answer soon. But what do I do here? Whatever faith I have is grounded on sand. I'll live my life thinking that God exists on good days but will go off on skeptical tirades or just be plain apathetic depending on my mood. Today I think there is a good chance he's real but tomorrow I might not. I'm pretty sure I've even gotten to the point where I've felt his presence before or whatever.
I'm not sure what's still holding me back from a decision. Maybe I just like rebellion and want to see how long I can make it last. It's not like I'm willing to go to my church friends so soon and say "you know how I said I'm not sure if God was real like 10 days ago well I've changed my mind and I'm all better now." Or maybe I am still angry and am just using doubt as a smokescreen to hide it.
Have you guys ever gone through periods of your life like this? It's not like I'm passed off and angry all the time I just have no idea what the hell is going on or where I stand right now. I'm just not really sure what I'm supposed to do.
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Post by Woodrow LI on Jan 31, 2014 12:12:06 GMT -6
Life is a path. Sometimes we begin to wonder what other paths are like or even decide we hate being on a path.
That is not necessarily a bad thing as it encourages us to become seekers. the first step in seeking is knowing we do not have the answers.
All I desire for all people is they do make their own choices of their own free will and for every person to verify the truth of what they find.
Now before I forget: Welcome back to here. It is good to see you again.
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Post by thehurtbox on Jan 31, 2014 15:12:11 GMT -6
Thanks it's good to be back.
Woodrow, I think I remember you saying how you were not a Muslim until somewhat recently right? Was your conversion something that you just flowed into easily? In other words did you have a long period of questioning your path before picking the one you're on now or was it sort of a natural decision that you arrived to and you just sort of knew you were doing the right thing?
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Post by Maggie on Jan 31, 2014 15:33:54 GMT -6
Have you guys ever gone through periods of your life like this? It's not like I'm passed off and angry all the time I just have no idea what the hell is going on or where I stand right now. I'm just not really sure what I'm supposed to do. Jesus asked the boy’s father, “How long has he been like this?” [possessed of a spirit]
“From childhood,” he answered. “It has often thrown him into fire or water to kill him. But if you can do anything, take pity on us and help us.”
“‘If you can’?” said Jesus. “Everything is possible for one who believes.”
Immediately the boy’s father exclaimed, “I do believe; help me overcome my unbelief!” (Mark 9:21ff) I am really glad you brought this here. It is such an important subject and I want you to be sure that you are not alone in this. I think the majority of thoughtful believers on the planet, go through or have gone through, ups and downs-- sometimes really dark ones; sometimes not so dark but, still, disturbing. The best piece of advice I can give you is to work with it. You cannot force yourself to have feelings or beliefs that you don't have. But you can still obey and do the things that you know are pleasing to God. As weird as it sounds, you can still act like a believer. You can look for opportunities to be of service to others, even if it is only helping an old lady shovel out her driveway. You can still pray and it is ok to tell God that you are having trouble believing. In fact, there is no one better to lay it all out to. You *can* tell Him you are angry with Him.You can tell Him that you are deeply hurt by the bad outcome of a plan you held dear, or failure to get a job you wanted, or whatever it might be. You have a real friend and brother in Jesus and now would be an excellent time to put that to the test. Others have told Him to his face that they had doubts! Why not you? He died for you, too. The main thing is not to sit in judgement on yourself. There are few besides satan who judge us as harshly as we judge ourselves. God certainly will not cast you out for going through a rough period. And truthfully, you might go through more than one in your life. We are not mind-numbed robots marching through life with grins pasted on our faces. Woodrow is absolutely right. Life is a path. Only it doesn't always have the sign posts that we want, when and where we want them. Sometimes we have to trust that we are headed in the right direction. And if we are wrong? We turn around and go back to where we can pick up the right way again. Beyond all that, if you want to talk, to get things off your chest, this is a good place to do that. If you want to ask specific questions about Christianity, this is also a good place. I can make the board private so that no one can read it but our members, if that bit of extra privacy would help. Just let us know. And let us help. |
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Post by Woodrow LI on Jan 31, 2014 18:04:27 GMT -6
Thanks it's good to be back. Woodrow, I think I remember you saying how you were not a Muslim until somewhat recently right? Was your conversion something that you just flowed into easily? In other words did you have a long period of questioning your path before picking the one you're on now or was it sort of a natural decision that you arrived to and you just sort of knew you were doing the right thing? I did not accept Islam until I was 65 years old, 8 years ago. never planned to never even thought about it until the minute i said the Shahadah. I had given up on all religion over 20 years before and for the previous 20 years had been an Atheist. I had not spoken Arabic for over 20 years, And on the day I accepted Islam I was simply reading the Qur'an out of curiosity to see if i could still speak Arabic. By the time i finished, I said the Shahadah and did not even know if there were any Muslims in Texas. At first I thought I might be the only Muslim in Texas. There is no ritual involved in becoming Muslim, it consists simply of saying the Shahadah, preferably in front of witnesses, but if there are no Witnesses available, Allaah(swt) alone is a sufficient witness. |
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Post by thehurtbox on Feb 2, 2014 13:50:23 GMT -6
Maggie,
I appreciate the encouragement, thank you. I guess I just don't understand what you mean by acting like a believer. I just always understood sin as something that separates us from God. If I'm thinking that there is a good chance that he's not real then I don't really have a relationship with him and don't really accept his sacrifice and I literally can't be counted as a Christian. I just don't really see how playing the part of a believer helps. Would God be pleased with someone who is just going through the motions?
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Post by thehurtbox on Feb 2, 2014 13:57:11 GMT -6
Thanks it's good to be back. Woodrow, I think I remember you saying how you were not a Muslim until somewhat recently right? Was your conversion something that you just flowed into easily? In other words did you have a long period of questioning your path before picking the one you're on now or was it sort of a natural decision that you arrived to and you just sort of knew you were doing the right thing? I did not accept Islam until I was 65 years old, 8 years ago. never planned to never even thought about it until the minute i said the Shahadah. I had given up on all religion over 20 years before and for the previous 20 years had been an Atheist. I had not spoken Arabic for over 20 years, And on the day I accepted Islam I was simply reading the Qur'an out of curiosity to see if i could still speak Arabic. By the time i finished, I said the Shahadah and did not even know if there were any Muslims in Texas. At first I thought I might be the only Muslim in Texas. There is no ritual involved in becoming Muslim, it consists simply of saying the Shahadah, preferably in front of witnesses, but if there are no Witnesses available, Allaah(swt) alone is a sufficient witness. So did you take your capability of reading Islam after all that time as a sign that you should follow Allah? Was there anything else that made you wish to pursue Islam? |
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Post by Maggie on Feb 2, 2014 14:40:51 GMT -6
They, whoever they are, claim that Plato told the young men around him, "be what you want to seem." He meant that if one of his followers wanted to be thought of as a moral man, he needed to be moral. If he wanted to be thought a brave man, he needed to act bravely. As odd as it seems, there is a sound psychological principle at work here. It may be hard to always act morally, and we may feel like hypocrites for doing the right thing when we want to do the wrong thing, but the day comes when we are not acting any more. We are moral because we see and embrace moral behavior. We have become what we wanted to seem.
This is one way to approach the mixed feelings you have. God is pleased with obedience. He knows how you feel but emotions aren't worth a whole lot. Obedience is always excellent but it is particularly so, when you don't want to be and aren't even sure that there is a God to be obedient to. I am not talking about joining the choir or telling people that you are a Christian when you don't think you are. I am talking about acting like a man of God. That means continuing to do your best to develop the fruits of the spirit.
We can talk about the existence of God and how you can reason to the necessity of His existence, if you like, in coming days. But I suspect that you are wrestling with your own personal set of demons and that it is not an intellectual answer you need. Do you know what brought you to this point? If so, is it something you can share with us?
Whatever the case may be, there is one practical piece of advice I do want to offer to you. Please stay away from atheist forums. Even IGI, although there are some strong Christian voices there, will not be helpful now. The intellectual level of the Internet atheist is about 2nd grade. Seriously. These are people who don't seem to have any understanding of history, literature, or philosophy and that is a serious lack, if someone wants to understand the intellectual side of religion or wants to understand Christianity in particular. However, they seem much more persuasive than they are, when you are going through a bad patch yourself.
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Post by Woodrow LI on Feb 3, 2014 12:25:14 GMT -6
I did not accept Islam until I was 65 years old, 8 years ago. never planned to never even thought about it until the minute i said the Shahadah. I had given up on all religion over 20 years before and for the previous 20 years had been an Atheist. I had not spoken Arabic for over 20 years, And on the day I accepted Islam I was simply reading the Qur'an out of curiosity to see if i could still speak Arabic. By the time i finished, I said the Shahadah and did not even know if there were any Muslims in Texas. At first I thought I might be the only Muslim in Texas. There is no ritual involved in becoming Muslim, it consists simply of saying the Shahadah, preferably in front of witnesses, but if there are no Witnesses available, Allaah(swt) alone is a sufficient witness. So did you take your capability of reading Islam after all that time as a sign that you should follow Allah? Was there anything else that made you wish to pursue Islam? It was a deep feeling that overwhelmed me as I was reading. I felt a very strong presence of God(swt) I knew I had returned to where I belonged. |
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Post by thehurtbox on Feb 6, 2014 0:14:21 GMT -6
They, whoever they are, claim that Plato told the young men around him, "be what you want to seem." He meant that if one of his followers wanted to be thought of as a moral man, he needed to be moral. If he wanted to be thought a brave man, he needed to act bravely. As odd as it seems, there is a sound psychological principle at work here. It may be hard to always act morally, and we may feel like hypocrites for doing the right thing when we want to do the wrong thing, but the day comes when we are not acting any more. We are moral because we see and embrace moral behavior. We have become what we wanted to seem. This is one way to approach the mixed feelings you have. God is pleased with obedience. He knows how you feel but emotions aren't worth a whole lot. Obedience is always excellent but it is particularly so, when you don't want to be and aren't even sure that there is a God to be obedient to. I am not talking about joining the choir or telling people that you are a Christian when you don't think you are. I am talking about acting like a man of God. That means continuing to do your best to develop the fruits of the spirit. We can talk about the existence of God and how you can reason to the necessity of His existence, if you like, in coming days. But I suspect that you are wrestling with your own personal set of demons and that it is not an intellectual answer you need. Do you know what brought you to this point? If so, is it something you can share with us? Whatever the case may be, there is one practical piece of advice I do want to offer to you. Please stay away from atheist forums. Even IGI, although there are some strong Christian voices there, will not be helpful now. The intellectual level of the Internet atheist is about 2nd grade. Seriously. These are people who don't seem to have any understanding of history, literature, or philosophy and that is a serious lack, if someone wants to understand the intellectual side of religion or wants to understand Christianity in particular. However, they seem much more persuasive than they are, when you are going through a bad patch yourself. I think you're right about a lot of this. I don't doubt that if I went back to God in the way your describing, then after a while that I would think the same way I did before. Likewise if I spend time looking for reasons to doubt on the Internet or whatever then that's what I'll turn into. But this is exactly the kind of thing that's been bothering me. It just seems to me that everyone who becomes a Christian does so because of some emotional or personal need (this is only as far as I've experienced). This doesn't mean Christianity is false but it is concerning to me; the fact that you can never look at the evidence objectively and arrive at God . There's always another factor that needs to play into you believing in him. It's always a top down process but never a bottom up one. This is kind of where I am right now. I know there are reasons to believe in God and I still don't think atheism is particularly logical, but right now I see no real convincing evidence that there is a God. The only way I could find it convincing is if I surrender my life to him. But to do that I have to believe He exists. So you're totally right but I don't know if Christianity is something I really want to pursue. I know that if I make a heartfelt prayer and I seriously pursue God that I'll at least believe that he's saved me and that he's real. But I'm really concerned about what's true and not just what makes me satisfied. If I go back to Him I want it to be because I found a good reason to suggest he might be there. To your questions...I think you're right that my struggle with faith isn't all purely intellectual. I guess mostly I've struggled with the fact that if God exists then he seems to be very silent, particularly in my life. I don't want to go into too much detail but mostly it felt like I was going through a lot of pain that seemed thoroughly pointless. Late last year I hit a rough patch and had a lot of self doubts, anxiety, and depression. There wasn't anything that seemed to trigger it although being bored and having a lot of time to myself could have had a lot to do with it. Mostly I couldn't see the point of it all. It wasn't the type of pain that I could learn anything from or one that made me stronger. It just made me resent everything I cared about And I began to think "if there is a god then he's kind of a bastard." After that I began asking myself "what is really more likely: that there is an all loving God that is willing to save me from sin and death but just suddenly not care about every other aspect of my life (the day to day real life stuff) or that there is no God and that sometimes you're just dealt a bad hand-the re usually isn't a reason for why things happen they just happen." There are a lot of logical problems with the argument I just gave but that's what sort of got me here. The anger is gone mostly. Now I'm really just kind of skeptical and apathetic about God and religion. |
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Post by Maggie on Feb 6, 2014 4:49:05 GMT -6
It just seems to me that everyone who becomes a Christian does so because of some emotional or personal need (this is only as far as I've experienced). This doesn't mean Christianity is false but it is concerning to me; the fact that you can never look at the evidence objectively and arrive at God . There's always another factor that needs to play into you believing in him. It's always a top down process but never a bottom up one. You can look at the evidence and arrive at God. People have been doing it for 3000 years across cultures and history. If you push back far enough the amount of agreement on who God is is quite striking. And it is not just the Abrahamic religions that agree. I will say more about that in another message because I think you are absolutely right to want to think logically about God. However, having said that, of course personal and emotional needs drive our response to God. We were made by him and for him. When we do not feel His presence what would anyone feel but pain? I don't know if you are familiar with John of the Cross. He wrote a treatise and a poem on what he called "The Dark Night of the Soul". It has been experienced by more people than you would suppose. You can look that up in Wikipedia (or Google "dark night of the soul" and see how much you find (!) ) from which I will quote this snippet (I cut out the footnotes for the sake of clarity): The term "dark night (of the soul)" is used in Christianity for a spiritual crisis in a journey towards union with God, like that described by Saint John of the Cross.
Saint Thérèse of Lisieux, a 19th-century French Carmelite, wrote of her own experience. Centering on doubts about the afterlife, she reportedly told her fellow nuns, "If you only knew what darkness I am plunged into."
While this crisis is usually temporary in nature, it may last for extended periods. The "dark night" of Saint Paul of the Cross in the 18th century lasted 45 years, from which he ultimately recovered.
Mother Teresa of Calcutta, according to letters released in 2007, "may be the most extensive such case on record", lasting from 1948 almost up until her death in 1997, with only brief interludes of relief between. Franciscan Friar Father Benedict Groeschel, a friend of Mother Teresa for a large part of her life, claims that "the darkness left" towards the end of her life. They (particularly Mother Teresa) dealt with this by doing their best to continue to obey God and seek His will even though they did not sense His presence. It is a very painful experience, as you are finding out. This, as unsatisfying as it may be, is part of the answer to the question you are posing. God is real and if you continue to seek Him you will find Him. However, the shape of your faith, how you express it and what you believe may prove to be quite different when you look back on the place you started at. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2014 11:13:54 GMT -6
The best remedy for doubt (i.e., not knowing what to think or what is true) is investigation, not imitation, in my opinion. It was frustrating for me when I was a believer that when I would express doubt, my believing friends would advise much along the lines that Maggie suggests. Instead, I turned to study, particularly of the history of my religion and the historical behaviors of those who claimed it. This simple act of curiosity was denounced as "rebellion". I don't see why. I was told my faith rested on a solid historical and factual basis. I believed this myself. I just wanted to know what it was.
Imagine you grew up taught that the ocean floor was covered with ceramic tile like a swimming pool but started to doubt. Why would you accept the advice of someone who suggested that the solution for this doubt was to act as if this were true? Go to the bottom.
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Post by Maggie on Feb 15, 2014 13:00:03 GMT -6
Unfortunately, you cannot treat God like the bottom of the ocean floor. I am not proposing that Hurtbox act like a card-carrying Christian and pretend nothing is wrong. I am proposing what might be called the Mother Teresa solution. Do what you know God wants, even if all you meet with is silence. Since the things God expects and demands of us are rational and can be (and sometimes are) done by believers and unbelievers, I am advising him to continue to exercise the virtues that he is already committed to.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2014 14:37:19 GMT -6
Do what you know God wants, even if all you meet with is silence. Since the things God expects and demands of us are rational and can be (and sometimes are) done by believers and unbelievers, I am advising him to continue to exercise the virtues that he is already committed to. With all due respect, "what God wants" eventually boils down to who says so. This is where doubt comes from, among other places--not a solution to it. |
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Post by Maggie on Feb 15, 2014 19:08:24 GMT -6
I am not going to say too much more here. Hurtbox seems to have heard as much as he cares to and I don't want to seem to be talking about him personally, especially since I haven't got a clue what set of circumstances have brought him to his current place. I will say, in general, that the way atheists think about doubt always makes me smile. The frequency with which anyone loses his faith because of honest intellectual study is not even a statistical blip on the world's radar. It doesn't happen often enough to make waves. Yes, I know that Internet atheists who were once believers think they were deconverted by the "facts" but that is a claim to positive knowledge. Once you make that claim, I want to hear your evidence that Christianity is not true.
No. Doubt is an attack on the soul. Most of us go through periods when God seems very far away. Those who work through them usually come out stronger than before. But it can be very painful, particularly if it includes giving up a fundy theology of health and wealth, or, one of cheap grace. There is a lot of garbage to wade through in evangelical/fundamentalist Protestantism and it seems to take every form the mind of man can invent. But everyone has to grapple with faith and make it his own in order to come to a mature faith. A lot of those who think Christianity is simple don't understand that and then are surprised when doubt strikes. Really, Christianity is not for those who want an easy ride.
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Post by Woodrow LI on Feb 15, 2014 19:25:50 GMT -6
Belief in God(swt) does require a search. If you walk towards him, he will rush towards you. But as it is our free choice we need to first find a reason to begin looking.
Don't expect God(swt) to pounce upon you and demand you to believe. It is more like looking for flowers, once you begin looking you will find them every place.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 17, 2014 14:35:17 GMT -6
I am not going to say too much more here. Hurtbox seems to have heard as much as he cares to and I don't want to seem to be talking about him personally, especially since I haven't got a clue what set of circumstances have brought him to his current place. I will say, in general, that the way atheists think about doubt always makes me smile. The frequency with which anyone loses his faith because of honest intellectual study is not even a statistical blip on the world's radar. It doesn't happen often enough to make waves. Yes, I know that Internet atheists who were once believers think they were deconverted by the "facts" but that is a claim to positive knowledge. Once you make that claim, I want to hear your evidence that Christianity is not true. No. Doubt is an attack on the soul. Most of us go through periods when God seems very far away. Those who work through them usually come out stronger than before. But it can be very painful, particularly if it includes giving up a fundy theology of health and wealth, or, one of cheap grace. There is a lot of garbage to wade through in evangelical/fundamentalist Protestantism and it seems to take every form the mind of man can invent. But everyone has to grapple with faith and make it his own in order to come to a mature faith. A lot of those who think Christianity is simple don't understand that and then are surprised when doubt strikes. Really, Christianity is not for those who want an easy ride. My, aren't you presumptive. All you need is the word "atheist" and you can conveniently dismiss everything I have to say. Not that you asked, but I had three decades of spiritual experience, deep devotion and even a decade of Christian leadership prior to giving up on my "easy ride". When I wrote to the OP, it was out of the context of my own experience, just as your responses arise from your own. Further, I was good enough to couch my comments to him/her with the words "in my opinion", which might be a useful skill for you to pick up if you really are interested in growing the forum. |
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Post by Maggie on Feb 17, 2014 19:56:44 GMT -6
"I will say, in general" ... is my way of acknowledging that what I am saying is not universally true. Beyond that I wasn't talking about you at all. I suppose I could have used "one" instead of "you" but that is so stilted! I am very sorry that you are offended but, at the same time, I am intrigued. Your background is quite impressive but you didn't answer the question that always intrigues me. What are your intellectual grounds for rejecting your faith? What did you find on the ocean floor?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 17, 2014 22:22:44 GMT -6
"I will say, in general" ... is my way of acknowledging that what I am saying is not universally true. Beyond that I wasn't talking about you at all. I suppose I could have used "one" instead of "you" but that is so stilted! I am very sorry that you are offended but, at the same time, I am intrigued. Your background is quite impressive but you didn't answer the question that always intrigues me. What are your intellectual grounds for rejecting your faith? What did you find on the ocean floor? I agree that no one converts one way or other by means of simple argument. My objection was to the idea that a doubted concept should be assumed to be true and acted upon until the doubts fade, as opposed to challenged or investigated. While I was given similar instruction back in the day it lays one open to deception. Embrace doubt. Questions are good, and not bad. In terms of my own exodus from the faith, if I gave the impression that it was purely intellectual, then I misled you. Historical investigation is useful for fact checking a few of the building blocks (e.g. has there been one Christian faith through the ages, how solid is the scriptural and apostolic tradition, out of what context did Christian doctrines arise and on what timeline, etc), but learning in such areas tends to be toxic to certain types of faith rather than faith in general. Ultimately, my loss of faith was similar (in reverse) to that of a conversion, for primarily experiential reasons. I found that I had believed what I believed mostly because it was imprinted on me from a very tender age, that biblical promises regularly required excuses for non-fulfillment, that "the Holy Spirit" seemed to be leading people to incompatible and contradictory positions--something that makes sense if people just name drop God on their personal biases, but not in a truly spiritually led movement, etc. One day I realized that, despite my best efforts to persist in faith, I simply no longer believed. It was an observation, not a decision, and it was almost wholly unwelcome given my history. |
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Post by thehurtbox on Feb 17, 2014 23:51:12 GMT -6
I was absent for awhile there...sorry about that...
To flitzerbiest,
As much as I would want to "start from the bottom" like you say, I'm not sure its really humanly possible. I don't think I can reach any decision without some kind of bias. If I choose to become a Christian again, it will because I am filling an emotional need that I think only God could fill. Its only after choosing to act on an emotional impulse that I will start to find reasons (on an intellectual level) for believing in God. The opposite is also true. If I don't want to believe in God or if I'm angry at Him (like I was two months ago) then doubts are naturally going to show up. I'd really like to remove myself from the situation and then look at the merits of every side to decide if God is real or not, but I'm not sure if I can do that. Since I'm somewhere in the middle still, I think there might be reasons for belief and unbelief in God. Sometimes I'll pray out of habit if I'm stressed out with work (part of why I haven't been to this forum in awhile) and most of the time I'm just content with either not really thinking about it or doubting that God exists. How exactly do you start at the bottom?
To Maggie,
I appreciate what you're saying. Let me respond with a few points.
1) I don't see how following the MT approach works in my case. I've spent a lot of time thinking about how I can express this so hopefully this bizarre analogy might help explain what I mean:
Say that I have this really awesome friend named Steve. One day I invite Steve over to my place to watch the game. While I wait for him to show up I remember that Steve HATES the color yellow and would be really upset with me if he showed up and I was wearing my yellow shirt. Being the good friend that I am I change shirts to something different while I wait for Steve to show up. Well as it turns out it seems like Steve is taking a very long time to show up. He's already missed most of the game and I can't get a hold of him, I start doubting if he's going to show up at all. I start thinking, "Steve might not show up at all and I really wanted to wear my favorite yellow shirt today...maybe I could just put it on." But I want to give Steve a chance to come, I mean I don't want to risk him showing up and then I happen to be wearing that shirt. So out of respect for my friend I choose not to wear it.
To me this is what the Mother Theresa approach might look like. It makes sense because Steve is a good guy after all and it doesn't make sense to do something that is blatantly disrespectful to him. Even if I might doubt for a little bit that he is showing up I can still resort to this method and not wear the shirt. Heck even if he doesn't show up at all its not the end of the world, Steve is a good guy and he probably had a good reason for his absence. But my situation I think is different than that.
To me, the scenario plays out like this: I'm waiting for Steve to show up to the game. Not because I care for or respect the guy but because I did it out of obligation. He would always come over to watch the games when I was a kid so I felt like I should invite him this time. Now the thing is that I'm not sure if Steve will show up at all. He doesn't strike me is the most reliable guy. But say in this scenario that I still chose not to wear that yellow shirt. I'm obviously not not wearing the yellow shirt because I love Steve so much that I'd hate for him to be upset. I'm probably not wearing it because I just don't like wearing yellow shirts. I'm not thinking about Steve at all.
My point is that I could keep doing what you're suggesting and doing what's favorable to God (if he exists) just like all believers and nonbelievers can do. But if I continue to not think highly of God, then simply not wearing the color yellow, or doing good to my neighbor, or anything else isn't really a way to mend a broken relationship with God. Maybe it is significant that I may wish to do some of the things that God deems good and I may not wish to do the things that are bad, but its all mostly coincidence. It just makes me a human being, it doesn't make me a saint. I have trouble believing that God is good, or real I guess. Simply following what I know is good doesn't seem like a good solution to me.
2) I'm not trying to be cryptic about what led me from Christianity into basically theological Switzerland, I'm probably just not very good at explaining it. It was a lot of things mostly and its been over two months now so its hard to point to any one thing and say "this is why I doubt that God exists." Is there anything more I could say that would maybe help you understand what my issues are?
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