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Post by Woodrow LI on Oct 12, 2013 14:43:31 GMT -6
Sabeeans also spelled Sabian and sometimes called Mandeans
The Sabeeans (Baptizers) are almost an unforgotten Abrahamic Faith. I am going to speak of them here as the Qur'an is one of they few places they are still remembered.
They were/are a Breakaway Jewish sect that seperated from Judaism. They emphasised Baptism as necessary for Salvation. The best known Sabeean is John the Sabeean(Baptizer in English).
After the rise of Christianity the Sabeeans either left or were driven out of region and dispersed into what is now known as Iraq.
It is not certain if any exist today as there is a group called Mandeans that practice Baptism at the Euphrates river, worship John The Baptist (Sabeean) and claim to be Sabeeans.
As they came from Judaism they are considered to be "People of the Book"
I am mentioning them as most people are unaware of them and never ask why Muslims list 4 Abrahamic Faiths.
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Post by nabilbb on Oct 18, 2013 11:29:21 GMT -6
Are you talking about John the bible writer?
So what is the difference between this group and Christians since both emphasised Baptism as necessary for Salvation?
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Post by Woodrow LI on Oct 18, 2013 16:58:52 GMT -6
Are you talking about John the bible writer? So what is the difference between this group and Christians since both emphasised Baptism as necessary for Salvation? No John the Baptizer (Sabeean) not John the bible writer. John the Sabeean was beheaded by Herod, the Christian Bible does not contain any books attributed to him, but the Sabeeans have books attributed to him, but none of the NT books. (If memory serves me right.). The Sabeeans believe John the Sabeean was the Messiah and the Savior. Christians believe Isa(as) was the Messiah and Savior. The Sabeeans also believe Baptism has to Baptized in 'Living Water" which is flowing fresh water like a river or brook, not a lake, pond, pool, ocean etc. It is preferred the Baptism be done in the River Jordan. but if a person can not go there any clean river can do. They also believe a person must be baptized often, some get baptized daily. |
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Post by Maggie on Oct 19, 2013 18:26:14 GMT -6
This is very interesting. I think there is no doubt that some of his followers thought that John was the Messiah. However, he told his followers to follow Jesus. That would seem to put an end to it. His execution, too.
Can you say why the Sabeeans believe in daily baptism? Or maybe it would be better to ask, what do they think baptism accomplishes?
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Post by Woodrow LI on Oct 19, 2013 19:02:08 GMT -6
This is very interesting. I think there is no doubt that some of his followers thought he was the Messiah. However, he told his followers to follow Jesus. That would seem to make it hard to hold to the belief that he was the Messiah. As we consider him to be the Prophet Yahya (PBUT) I am quite certain he would not have told his followers he was the Savior. The Sabeeans did not separate fully from Judaism until after the Death of John. In time they became seen as heretical by both Christians and Jews. It is not clear if they were driven out or if they Migrated on their own There are at least 2 groups that claim to be the Sabeean, the Mandean and I believe some Nazarene. The Mandean in Iraq seem to put forth the most adamant claim, but the Nazarene seem to be historically possible although they are considered to be Christians.. My own thought is both can trace their roots back to followers of John. Sort of like Both Catholics and Greek Orthodox can trace their roots back to Peter. |
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Post by Woodrow LI on Oct 19, 2013 19:13:22 GMT -6
Can you say why the Sabeeans believe in daily baptism? Or maybe it would be better to ask, what do they think baptism accomplishes? I think it has to do with Human Nature. if something is good once, a lot must be better. It is quite difficult to know how closely the Sabeeans of today follow the original Sabeean teachings. It is very probable embellishments have taken place over the Centuries. Those that practice daily Baptism may have started by doing it as a reminder of their Baptism, but it evolved into a necessity for Salvation. |
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Post by Woodrow LI on Oct 19, 2013 19:21:09 GMT -6
I should add that the Jews used to practice a ritual washing before entering the Temple similar to the Wadu us Muslims perform before entering a Mosque or touching the Qur'an or before prayers. We typically do it once in the morning just before the Fajr prayer and do not repeat it unless we do something that invalidates our wadu such as falling asleep or doing something Haram.
This could be the basis for the daily Baptism.
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Post by Maggie on Oct 19, 2013 20:04:30 GMT -6
Well, this interests me because I was thinking of our Catholic practicing of blessing ourselves with Holy Water upon entering or leaving the church. It is a symbolic reminder of our baptism but no harm will be done if you fail to do it. Likewise there is the sprinkling of the entire congregation at the Easter vigil to remind us of our baptismal vows. It sure does illustrate how important Baptism is in all our religions.
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Post by Woodrow LI on Oct 19, 2013 20:29:04 GMT -6
Well, this interests me because I was thinking of our Catholic practicing of blessing ourselves with Holy Water upon entering or leaving the church. It is a symbolic reminder of our baptism but no harm will be done if you fail to do it. Likewise there is the sprinkling of the entire congregation at the Easter vigil to remind us of our baptismal vows. It sure does illustrate how important Baptism is in all our religions. To clarify and try not to mislead you. We do not see wudu as a form of Baptism. It is a ritual washing of our soul and body. but we do not see it as removing any sin. But I do understand why Christians would see it as a form of Baptism or derived from Baptism. |
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Post by Maggie on Oct 19, 2013 21:09:03 GMT -6
But it must have a meaning. Can you say what?
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Post by Woodrow LI on Oct 19, 2013 21:44:48 GMT -6
But it must have a meaning. Can you say what? In Islam intent, feelings and purpose are important factors in all things we do. Wudu is intended to instill a feeling of cleanliness in us prior to our doing the obligatory prayers or touching the Qur'an. It is a preparation for worship. Keep in mind we have physical contact with the people on both sides of us. In prayer our shouders and feet touch the person along side us. I just remembered a video that might add to what I wrote. |
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