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Post by thehurtbox on Oct 9, 2013 9:59:11 GMT -6
As a theist I believe that God not only exists but has made his presence directly known to man and that at times he has interfered with history. So I believe specifically that I have a few things to go off of to determine what is true and what is not true about God. There are general revelations that most theists feel through intuition (God is in some way responsible for all this, so he must intelligent, powerful, ect.) But I think there is also specific revelations that are made known to us. For me this mostly comes in the form of the Bible. In other words if someone asks me what a Christian believes about such and such, I will first go to scripture to form my answer and then work from there. My question is what do Muslims believe to be their specific specific revelation from Allah? Is the Quaran the only guide you would use in answering questions about Allah or Islam? Are their times when you should use something in place of the Quaran to to determine truth? Is one revelation more important than another?
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Post by Woodrow LI on Oct 10, 2013 10:41:53 GMT -6
Peace thehurtbox,
Very good question. We believe there were 4 scripture sent to Mandkind (Might have been more, but we only know for certain of 4) Those being The Tauret (Torah), Zaboor (Book of Psalms) The Injil (Gospel of Jesus) and the Qur'an.
The only Scripture we are certain still exists in it's original form is the Qur'an. That is the only book we know with certainty to be scripture as it was revealed.
There are Numerous writings available that can help us understand the Scripture such as the "Fiqh-ul-Sunnah" The "Ahadith" The Tafsir of numerous scholars. all of which are the words of man, not of Allaah(swt) if we see any disagreement the Qur'an is what we are to follow.
The Ahadith are similar to Gospels, they are eyewitness accounts of what Muhammad(saws) said and did.
The Sunnah are records of how the Sahaba (Companions of Muhammad) lived and worshiped.
The Tafsir are commentaries of Scholars that have done extensive studies of the Qur'an.
While the extraneous books and studies help us understand Islam, the final word is the Qur'an
Many people do like to toss Ahadith around as explanations. but there is danger in that as they are the accounts of people and some do contain errors. Any Hadith has to be evaluated for authenticity and reliability. it is a complex process and while I encourage Muslims to read the Ahadith, I also urge them to do so with the guidance of a scholar that has done an extensive study of the process of determining Authenticity and reliability.
When I try to explain something about the Qur'an I often consult various Tafsir usually Kathir and Maududi.
But for a simple answer: We consider the Qur'an ,alone, to be the "Word of God" and our only Scripture.
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Post by thehurtbox on Oct 10, 2013 15:11:19 GMT -6
Thanks for the reply Woodrow. What qualifies a commentary on the Quaran to be classified as Tafsir? Are new ones being accepted by Islam or is the list pretty much set in stone? And I take it that a valid Tafsir would be seen as more authoritative than works like the sunnah or ahaddith(sorry if spelled anything wrong) because tafsir deals with interpreting the most authortive book there is in Islam?
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Post by Woodrow LI on Oct 11, 2013 9:03:21 GMT -6
Thanks for the reply Woodrow. What qualifies a commentary on the Quaran to be classified as Tafsir? Are new ones being accepted by Islam or is the list pretty much set in stone? And I take it that a valid Tafsir would be seen as more authoritative than works like the sunnah or ahaddith(sorry if spelled anything wrong) because tafsir deals with interpreting the most authortive book there is in Islam? In Islam everything comes down to personal responsibility. It is up to the individual to determine the truth of all things. All commentaries are Tafsir. However only a few have passed the test of time and have a significant number of people agreeing with them. Most people are very reluctant to express any tafsir, if we are in error we are guilty of spreading a falsehood. Which is considered a big sin. We have no ordained clergy nor any central earthly leader. All things eventually come down to self responsibility. We can only use the opinions and teachings of others as guides. We as individuals hold the responsibility of determining the truth of them. We do not even consider any translation of the Qur'an as the Qur'an as translations can contain error and all translations are the opinion of the translator. The Tafsir of ibn Kathir is probably the best known and the most read. Another one is the commentary in the Qur'an translation written by Abdullah Yusuf Ali, however that one has several glaring errors and is not considered very reliable by most people. On a personal basis for Tafsir I prefer the commentary of Syed Maududi over all others. We do not have any type of authoritative body that says things like one tafsir is better than another one. Everything in Islam comes down to personal responsibility. We do not have the option of saying some one has misled us as it is our own responsibility to check and verify all things. We are not to agree with anything or anybody unless we have ourself found reason to agree. I guess the only thing we all agree on is that the Qur'an in the original Tajweed Arabic is the word of God(swt)
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Post by Maggie on Oct 11, 2013 9:23:13 GMT -6
This is troubling though. You have many times spoken of the responsibility of each Muslim for his beliefs and behavior. Thus, it is perfectly legitimate for individual Muslims to see terrorism as a political and religious weapon for spreading Islam. Who can tell them they are wrong?
That is obviously the extreme but we do see it. I know that good people get tarred with that brush but it simply cannot be shrugged off. Islam contains within itself the justification for individuals making decisions to reach political ends in just about any fashion they sincerely believe is godly. How can such a tension be resolved?
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Post by Woodrow LI on Oct 11, 2013 16:58:43 GMT -6
This is troubling though. You have many times spoken of the responsibility of each Muslim for his beliefs and behavior. Thus, it is perfectly legitimate for individual Muslims to see terrorism as a political and religious weapon for spreading Islam. Who can tell them they are wrong?
That is obviously the extreme but we do see it. I know that good people get tarred with that brush but it simply cannot be shrugged off. Islam contains within itself the justification for individuals making decisions to reach political ends in just about any fashion they sincerely believe is godly. How can such a tension be resolved? I see the problem more as some people for political reasons proclaiming themselves as Islamic leaders and stifling education. The areas were most radicals come from seem to have a very high rate of illiteracy. It spite of self responsibility most Muslims never find Justification for violence in the Qur'an. But if a person does have a predisposition or desire for violence, with selective reading out of context I am certain they can find it. But those same people would find Justification for it in any Scripture. In spite of having no Central Leadership and the emphasis on self Responsibility. Most Muslims do receive an extensive Islamic Education. Each Muslim has an obligation to correct any errors he believes a Brother or Sister is making. The correction usually takes the form of stating what one believes and giving an explanation as to why they believe such. We have a strong feeling of responsibility to share what we know, Even without a formal Islamic education a Muslim is going to learn the opinions of friends and family. An Islamic education actually takes a lifetime. Typically it begins with the Mother. The next step is learning to read and recite the Qur'an with proper speed and pronunciation. The Next step will be Qur'anic studies which will include studies of the Tafsir commentary and interpretations by various Scholars of the past. Later one usually tends to concentrate on a specific area that attracts them. It does not take one long to realize that while they can learn from others, they should not be blind followers and always seek verification of what is being taught.
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Post by Maggie on Oct 12, 2013 16:48:59 GMT -6
This sounds good but the problem is that by all accounts half the Qur'an is taken up with fire and brimstone seeking the death or enslavement of all Kuffar.
Bill Warner writing in the American Thinker has a lot to say about that:
Allah hates Kafirs and plots and schemes against them. The cruelest punishments await the Kafir in hell, but who cares about that? The real problem is what is promised to the Kafir in this life -- torture, hatred, death, ridicule, rape, enslavement, political domination, and deception. His article was prompted by the horrible massacre of Kuffar at the mall in Kenya. Most of us recall that the al Shabaab jihadi Somalis separated the Muslims from the Kuffar before beginning their murder spree and the torture that went with the murders was gruesome. It just isn't persuasive to look at what these groups say and do and tell us that "Islam" has nothing to do with it. I mentioned in an earlier message that the distinction between Christianity and Islam could not be more stark. Jesus was a man of peace who shed no blood but his own. He taught peace. Muhammad was a successful and bloody general who preached bloodshed.
Warner makes a very interesting observation about the relationship between Islam and politics:
Jihad and Kafir are part of a system of Islamic politics. Mohammed preached the religion of Islam for 13 years and garnered 150 followers. When he turned to politics and jihad, he died ruler of all of Arabia, and every Arab was a Muslim. The religion of Islam was a failure, and Islam triumphed by the use of politics and jihad -- war against the Kafir. So the question that needs to be addressed eventually, not necessarily this instant, is which came first and predominates? The religion steeped in blood or the more philosophic version that has won your allegiance? To be honest, I don't think we are at a place historically, where we can dare trust that your version is anything but a minority view.
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Post by Woodrow LI on Oct 13, 2013 14:46:27 GMT -6
This sounds good but the problem is that by all accounts half the Qur'an is taken up with fire and brimstone seeking the death or enslavement of all Kuffar.
Bill Warner writing in the American Thinker has a lot to say about that:
Allah hates Kafirs and plots and schemes against them. The cruelest punishments await the Kafir in hell, but who cares about that? The real problem is what is promised to the Kafir in this life -- torture, hatred, death, ridicule, rape, enslavement, political domination, and deception.
If one looks at that with an open mind and if they know what is meant by schemes and Kafir they may discover it is virtually identical with Christian beliefs. But first an explanation about 2 words. Kafir is a word widely misused by both Non-Muslims and Muslims. The meaning of it is Disbeliever, more specifically one who does not worship the one true Monotheistic God(swt) after learning about Him. In other words Deliberate rejection. I find that the Fatwas by most scholars condemns the calling of followers of any Abrahamic religion a Kafir. It is virtually an impossibility to know who is a kafir and a serious sin to call a person a Kafir if they are not. A Fatwa that deals with this. The phrase "and schemes against them" comes from Surah 86 ayyat 15 The word translated to Schemes is kaida the Arabic connotation is more like a combination of plans and all knowing. A rather difficult word to Translate into English. Can't really do it with one word. But the concept is Allaah(swt) has the ability to counter any and all attempts to disobey him. The Kenya Mall was done by Terrorist. they are enemies of Islam also. Perhaps they thought they would gain the trust and support of Muslims in Kenya if they showed they were sparing Muslims. They did not do the Muslims in Kenya any favors. Another side of the story. SOURCEKeep in mind the Kenya Government is made up of some Muslims as is the Keny military. There were also Muslims fighting the terrorists. Something overlooked by Warner. Muhammad(saws) made no personal gain from Islam and never did accumulate any material wealth. He did not own anything. Also while Islam did spread, it was not a material spread and taking of wealth or anyone's property. One needs to look at ehe conditions of pre-Islamic Arabia and what type of people the Arabs were. Including the Arab Christians and Jews of the era. This was very similar if not identical to the OT days. The Christians of Mecca and Medinah were for the most part heretical sects that did not pratice what today's Christians would call Christianity. They had earned the wrath of Christians in their homeland. There were some exceptions such as Muhammad(saws)'s favorite uncle by Marriage who was the first person to call Muhammad(saws) a Prophet although he never accepted Islam and remained a Christian for hie entire life. Non-Muslims never see it odd that Muhammad(saws)'s uncle was never forced to accept Islam nor molested by Mulims, if Islam was spread by force. If Muhammad(saws) taught we are to convert or kill Non-Muslims why didn't he kill his uncle as an example? the people in pre-Islamic Arabia were quite hostile and war like. They were not receptive to giving up their way of life and did their best to kill Muhammad(saws) and his followers. The Followers of Muhammad(saws) were often attacked. It was a very violent era and like I said similar to the times of the OT and basically the same people. I have found the vast majority of Muslims I have met world wide are extremely peaceful and not violent. I do not find my views to be the exception but rather the norm of what I have seen. Most of my mentors have been from Pakistan, Iraq and Afghanistan. Along with Indonesia and Malaysia.
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Post by thehurtbox on Oct 13, 2013 18:19:36 GMT -6
Woodrow,
The trouble I guess that I have is that I don't see a true way of distinguishing between actions/policies of islamic nations that go against the Quaran and actions/plocies are supported by it. Is the rejection of Israel's right to exist in Palestine legitimate in Islam? Do people believe that only because many muslim leaders are twisting what the quaran says and manipulating their own people? Or can it be argued that scripture supports this in some way so it believed justly?
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Post by Woodrow LI on Oct 13, 2013 19:03:49 GMT -6
Woodrow, The trouble I guess that I have is that I don't see a true way of distinguishing between actions/policies of islamic nations that go against the Quaran and actions/plocies are supported by it. Is the rejection of Israel's right to exist in Palestine legitimate in Islam? Do people believe that only because many muslim leaders are twisting what the quaran says and manipulating their own people? Or can it be argued that scripture supports this in some way so it believed justly? The difficulty with Palestine is that while it is true there is a History of Jews in Palestine before Islam, It must be remembered that todays Muslim Palestinians were descended from those Jewish Palestinians. The Palestinians are a mixture of people. Some are Arab, Some were Canaanite, some were Philistines and some were Jews that converted to Islam. They all have a much longer history of being in Palestine than some Jews. You have to remember both Islam and Judaism are religions that have adherents of nearly every race and Nationality. You will find Othodox Jewish Palestinians in the West Bank that are adamantly against the existence of Israel as a nation. As for what any Muslim leaders have to say about Israel, I have not found any Fatwas that address Israel. Except for those urging Muslims to not buy and Israeli produced goods. which sort of back fired as many Israeli produced goods are made by Palestinians in Israeli owned factories. But an Israeli news source (Arutz Sheva) did call this a Christian fatwa against Israel. SOURCEBut I have not found anything said about Israel by any Islamic "Leader" there may be some, but I have not found any. I should mention that the only things I looked for have been Fatwas, which are the closest thing you can find to being the Islamic opinion of something.
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