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Post by nabilbb on Oct 5, 2013 0:52:30 GMT -6
As salami alaikum woodrow
quraan 9:30 The Jews say, "Ezra is the son of Allah "; and the Christians say, "The Messiah is the son of Allah ." That is their statement from their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved [before them]. May Allah destroy them; how are they deluded?
at this time, I don't see any Jew worshiping or saying Ezra is the son of god, or worshipping him, was that only for limited time? Can you explain this to me
thank you nabil
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Post by Woodrow LI on Oct 5, 2013 7:16:51 GMT -6
wa Alaikum Salaam wa Ramatullahi wa Baraktuhu, Another good question. First let us look at the Ayyat in context Surah 9 is quite complex and filled with warnings. we need to look deeper in the Surah ti understand. Fortuanatly the Surah Gives the entire message of it in it's last ayyat Now let us look at who the Surah was directed at and why. From the Commentary of Maududi SOURCEIt appears that this ayyat was a specific warning to the Christians, pointing out their error of calling Jesus(as), the "Son of God" it is showing the Jews did call men "Sons of God" is using Ezara as an example. There is no indication that the Jews ever worshiped Ezra nor thought of any man to be the physical "Son of God" This ayyat is pointing out the error to the Christians warning them that because some people did copy the Jews by calling Jesus(as) the "Son of God" did not mean He was to be worshipped. The Jews never did worship Exra and do worship only Allaah(swt) but this error of calling men (Son of God) did lead to people believing Jesus(as) was the Actual "Son of God" While we do believe the Jews have made many errors in worship. I am not aware of any indication they ever worshiped anyone except Allaah(swt) Just my personal opinion and I alone am responsible for any error. Astagfirullah I will try to find some Tafsir to post.
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Post by nabilbb on Oct 5, 2013 16:25:24 GMT -6
I think they worshiped Ezra at some point According to THIS hadith, but I don't really know when was it. I was hoping you know
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Post by Woodrow LI on Oct 6, 2013 1:01:59 GMT -6
I think they worshiped Ezra at some point According to THIS hadith, but I don't really know when was it. I was hoping you know Jazakallahu Khayran for teaching me something. You are correct that Hadith does say that at some point some Jews did worship Ezra, I did a bit more searching and could not find anything in Judaic History that would indicate any radical or deviant group of Jews ever worshiped Ezra. But after searching other sources i found this: Apparently there is a group descended from Jews living in Yemen that worshipped Ezra. What I find really interesting is this group was not found until several hundred years after the Qur'an was revealed. Truly Allaah(swt) knows all things. On a side note, they would be considered apostates by Mainstream Jews just as the "Messianic Jews" of today are considered apostates by mainstream Jews. Which explains why they do not appear in Jewish history.
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Post by Maggie on Oct 6, 2013 7:44:10 GMT -6
Another very interesting and informative post. It brings something to mind just barely-- perhaps you know? I seem to remember that a couple of decades ago, DNA was used to identify another Jewish group in that part of the world. They had always claimed they were Jews but not until DNA proved it, were they taken seriously as Jews.I know that isn't much to go on but perhaps you came across it while trying to track down the Ezra story.
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Post by Woodrow LI on Oct 6, 2013 9:33:19 GMT -6
Another very interesting and informative post. It brings something to mind just barely-- perhaps you know? I seem to remember that a couple of decades ago, DNA was used to identify another Jewish group in that part of the world. They had always claimed they were Jews but not until DNA proved it, were they taken seriously as Jews.I know that isn't much to go on but perhaps you came across it while trying to track down the Ezra story. You are probably thinking of the Ashkenazi Jews in Europe which now form the majority population of Jews in Israel. There has been some question as to if they are Jews with Hebrew ancestry. DNA evidence does show some Semitic Ancestry, possibly from Jews that settled in Oddessa Russian many hundreds of years ago. However it has not clearly answered the question as there are several groups of Semites: SOURCEAs there are so many from the same group it is not conclusive the Ashkenazi are of Hebrew ancestry.
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Post by littleboat on Oct 6, 2013 14:59:13 GMT -6
A very interesting post. It raises the question, "Who is a Jew?", or "When is a Jew not a Jew?". Clearly, the Tenach records that the Israelites (later called the Jews), at various times and in varying numbers, fell into pagan worship throughout their self-recorded history, Indeed, the Tenach is the very story of the their spiritual failure, the ensuing disaster, their subsequent cries for mercy, and their restoration through renewed faithfulness, repeatedly in an almost continuous cycle. Is there another spiritual record of a people that is so utterly honest? I can't think of one! In April 2009, while on a visit to Ghana, I was invited to visit an obscure tribe in Sefwi Wiasso, who had believed, until quite recently, that they were the last Jews in the world. It was only when a member of their tribe finally visited the Ghanaian capital, Accra, in the 1990s that they discovered there were other Jews. Speaking to the tribal elders under a tree in the middle of their village, I heard how their tribe had, as far as their oral tradition recalled, travelled down from North Africa along the West coast, and how at various times the tribe, due to persecution, had converted to Islam, Christianity and finally back to Judaism. Throughout this process over many centuries, they retained certain traditions that they later recognised as being peculiarly Judaic, such as dietary injunctions and menstrual regulations etc. Today they re-aligning themselves more fully with mainstream elements of Judaism. The relationship between belief and national or ethnic identity is complex and subject to fluctuation and variation over time. The history of the Islamic nations, particularly during the 20th century echo this fluctuation. I am not sure this post of mine casts much light on the OP but helped me answer a question I posed myself upon reading it!
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Post by Woodrow LI on Oct 6, 2013 15:40:59 GMT -6
Interesting input Littleboat.
Judaism fits several definitions.
A religion
A Racial ethnicity.
and a Nationality.
There are for example Christians who follow Jewish culture. There are many ethnic Jews in Israel that are Atheists and you have People of various religions that claim their Nationality as Jewish.
But for most Jews that I personally know they claim it as a religion only.
Part of this comes from the concept of inherited Judaism. If a person's Mother is Jewish according to Judaism the person is Jewish, even if they follow a different religion or no religion.
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Post by Maggie on Oct 6, 2013 16:39:59 GMT -6
This is interesting stuff! I wish I knew something about the population diffusions that scattered the Jews over a large part of the ancient world. The Jews to whom I was referring are African. They wanted to migrate to Israel but the Israelis were not willing to recognize them as Jews in part because they are black and, apparently, that was a first for the Israelis.
This is really going to bug me!
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Post by Woodrow LI on Oct 6, 2013 17:13:01 GMT -6
This is interesting stuff! I wish I knew something about the population diffusions that scattered the Jews over a large part of the ancient world. The Jews to whom I was referring are African. They wanted to migrate to Israel but the Israelis were not willing to recognize them as Jews in part because they are black and, apparently, that was a first for the Israelis.
This is really going to bug me! I do recall there were issues with the Ethipean Jews. Finally a lot were permitted to migrate to Israel, but they seem to be segregated and in their own villages. The Ethiopian Jews do carry Semitic DNA. There is shared DNA between Africans and Jews. SOURCESOURCEApparently the Ethiopean and other African Jews were the result of Jewish migrants into Africa. they probably are not "Lost Tribes" The name Hebrew was a derogatory Egyptian term and basically was a term for displaced people. The history of the Semites I posted in an early post tends to support this as the Hebrews were not one specific people but a bit of a hodgepodge. The Israelites technically are the descendants from Abrahams son Isaac who took the name Israel..
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Post by Maggie on Oct 6, 2013 17:45:27 GMT -6
Thanks for doing the sleuthing for me. I think this is the story I was thinking of. I am sorry to hear that after fighting for the right to emigrate the Ethiopians Jews are still facing such prejudice.
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Post by nabilbb on Oct 8, 2013 15:53:30 GMT -6
I tried to access the following references in order to find out more about Ezra, but I can't for some reason. Can someone access them? What I mean is I can't find them online
1] Encyclopaedia Judaica, Volume 6, Encylopedia Judaica Jerusalem, p. 1108 2] G. D. Newby, A History Of The Jews Of Arabia, 1988, University Of South Carolina Press, p. 59 3] Encyclopaedia Judaica, Ibid., p. 1108 4] George Sale, The Koran, IX Edition of 1923, London, p. 152 5] J. Walker, "Who Is 'Uzair?", The Moslem World, Volume XIX, No. 3, 1939, pp. 305-306 6] Ibid, p. 306
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Post by Maggie on Oct 8, 2013 17:23:57 GMT -6
We have the Newby book in our library. I am about to leave for today but will look tomorrow. I found this in Credo (a reference database): Ezra was regarded as a second Moses, who himself was worthy of receiving the torah. He made the Jews abandon their Gentile wives (Ezra 10) and took with him all the families with genealogical problems, since he knew Babylonian Jewry would henceforth lack leadership. When the Jews of the Yemen refused to join Ezra, he cursed them that they should remain poor. He introduced the square Hebrew script for use in writing the torah (see alphabet, Hebrew). Among the practices which he, and the Assembly of Sages which he led (see Synagogue, The Great), introduced was the thrice-weekly reading of the torah on Mondays, Thursdays and Saturday afternoons. The great sage Hillel is sometimes described as a disciple of Ezra. See also tithes.
"Ezra." Dictionary of Jewish Lore and Legend, Thames & Hudson. London: Thames & Hudson, 1991. Credo Reference. Web. 8 October 2013.
I found this bit of Surah 9 but I don't think it helps, does it?
SURAH 9, Repentance in The Qur'an The Jews call 'Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the Son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate
I can't so far get any results online for "Uzair" but there is probably a bibliography in Newby"s book which may get us more.
Oops, I did just find the briefest mention in the Jewish Encyclopedia (http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/search?utf8=%E2%9C%93&keywords=uzair&commit=search) "Ezra ("'Uzair") as the son of God—a malevolent metaphor for the great respect which was paid by the Jews to the memory of Ezra as the restorer of the Law, and from which the Ezra legends of apocryphal literature..."
Double OOPS!
I found the Encyclopedia Judaica online in my library. Unfortunately you can't access it since it is protected by a proxy server. It is a different one than your bibliography is speaking of. Cited properly: (Marcus, David, Haïm Z'ew Hirschberg, and Abraham Ben-Yaacob. "Ezra." Encyclopaedia Judaica. Ed. Michael Berenbaum and Fred Skolnik. 2nd ed. Vol. 6. Detroit: Macmillan Reference USA, 2007. 652-654. Gale Virtual Reference Library. Web. 8 Oct. 2013.
Here is what it says about Ezra (in part):
In Islam
Muhammad claims (Sura 9:30) that in the opinion of the Jews, ʿUzayr (Ezra) is the son of God. These words are an enigma because no such opinion is to be found among the Jews, even though Ezra was singled out for special appreciation (see Sanh. 21b; Yev. 86b). The Muslim traditionalists attempt to explain the words of Muhammad with a Muslim legend, whose origin appears to stem from IV Ezra 14:18–19. The people of Israel sinned, they were punished by God, the Holy Ark was removed, and the Torah was forgotten. It was due, however, to Ezra's merit that his heart was filled with the Torah of God, which he taught to the people of Israel. When the Holy Ark was returned to them and they compared that which Ezra taught them with the text of the Sefer Torah in the Holy Ark, the words they found were identical. They deduced from this that Ezra was the son of Allah. Ţabarī cites another version of this legend: the Jewish scholars themselves hid the Ark, after they were beaten by the Amalekites. H.Z. Hirsch-berg proposed another assumption, based on the words of Ibn Ḥazm (I, 99), namely, that the "righteous" who live in Yemen believe that ʿUzayr was indeed the son of Allah. According to other Muslim sources, there were some Yemenite Jews who had converted to Islam who believed that Ezra was the messiah. For Muhammad, Ezra, the apostle (!) of the messiah, can be seen in the same light as the Christians saw Jesus, the messiah, the son of Allah. An allusion to the figure of Ezra as the apostle of the messiah is found in a tale which is widespread among the Jews of Yemen, according to which Ezra requested that they immigrate to Ereẓ Israel, and because they did not, he cursed them. Yemenite Jews have therefore refrained from naming their children Ezra. According to some Muslim commentators, ʿUzayr is the man who passed by the destroyed city (of Jerusalem; Sura 2:261) and did not believe that it could be rebuilt (see *Jeremiah ).
I don't know if this helps at all. Remind me to look for newby's book tomorrow if I forget.
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Post by nabilbb on Oct 9, 2013 10:20:58 GMT -6
I think they worshiped Ezra at some point According to THIS hadith, but I don't really know when was it. I was hoping you know Jazakallahu Khayran for teaching me something. You are correct that Hadith does say that at some point some Jews did worship Ezra, Also on THIS hadith, it says, everyone who used to worship anything other that Allah will fall in the hellfire until Muslims, Christians, and Jews remain....etc. Why jews who worshipped Ezra didn't fall in Hellfire before this point?
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Post by Woodrow LI on Oct 9, 2013 12:22:21 GMT -6
Jazakallahu Khayran for teaching me something. You are correct that Hadith does say that at some point some Jews did worship Ezra, Also on THIS hadith, it says, everyone who used to worship anything other that Allah will fall in the hellfire until Muslims, Christians, and Jews remain....etc. Why jews who worshipped Ezra didn't fall in Hellfire before this point? Just my opinion. I believe they are in the grave and at the final Judgement day they will be sent to the Hellfire. It is my understanding is we will not be sent to Heaven or Hell until Judgement Day.
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Post by yusufnoor on Oct 30, 2013 18:59:13 GMT -6
As salami alaikum woodrow quraan 9:30 The Jews say, "Ezra is the son of Allah "; and the Christians say, "The Messiah is the son of Allah ." That is their statement from their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved [before them]. May Allah destroy them; how are they deluded? at this time, I don't see any Jew worshiping or saying Ezra is the son of god, or worshipping him, was that only for limited time? Can you explain this to me thank you nabil in the micro, the Jews in reference were local Jews, in the macro, it is referring to the fact that the Laws that the Jews follow today were formulated by Jewish scholars in Babylon. of those scholars, Ezra was considered the greatest. "son of God" to a Jew does not mean a divine being, merely one favored by God. here are some Jewish replies about Ezra, showing his place of importance and informing us that the methodology that the Jews use for worship was created by Ashnei Knesset Hagedolah. www.askmoses.com/en/article/591,539/Who-were-the-Anshei-Knesset-Hagedolah-Men-of-the-Great-Assembly.html www.askmoses.com/en/article/577,2080045/Is-it-a-Mitzvah-commandment-to-pray.html Peace and Love, Sam
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Post by yusufnoor on Oct 30, 2013 19:20:29 GMT -6
just to add to what i wrote previously (i stopped for Maghrib): another aspect of that ayah is a fascinating one. we see Jacob's descendants referred to as either Bani Israel or as "Jews", what's the difference? the term Jew didn't exist until the Babylonian captivity, thus "Jews" follow, "the Laws of Ezra", whilst Bani Israel refers to the tribes of Israel prior, who at times worshiped God, and at other times were polytheistic or just plain disobeyed God. www.askmoses.com/article.html?h=174&o=2440Where does the word "Jew" come from? by Rabbi Naftali Silberberg 1. The majority of "Jews" today are descended from the tribes of Judah and Benjamin -- the two tribes who comprised the "Kingdom of Judea."1 The other ten tribes, the "Northern Kingdom," were lost (see Mystery of the Ten Lost Tribes) In Hebrew; the word "Jew" (Yehudi) is a clear derivative of the word Judah ("Yehudah"). 2. As mentioned, the name "Jew" comes from the Hebrew word "Yehudi." The Talmud (Megillah 13a) says that the name Yehudi applies to anyone who rejects idolatry and accepts the one true G-d. (The word "Hoda'ah," which is the root of the word Yehudi (and Yehudah), means to acknowledge). That's why Mordechai, a descendant of the tribe of Benjamin, was called a Yehudi (Esther 2:5). All Jews, no matter their ancestry, are called "Yehudim" (Jews), because every Jew possesses a G-dly soul, which is characterized by an unwavering belief in G-d. For a deeper explanation of the "Jew" phenomenon, go to Purim: The Holiday When We Became Jewish. www.askmoses.com/article.html?h=529&o=2038538Purim: The Holiday When We Became Jewish by Rabbi Naftali Silberberg One of the questions I frequently receive is regarding the name “Jew”. The word Jew is a derivative of the name Judah, Jacob’s fourth son; hence calling someone by this name would seemingly imply that the person is a descendant of that particular tribe. However, as is well known, Jacob bore twelve sons, all of whom are the antecedents of our great nation. Why, then, is the entire Israelite nation known as “Jews”?1 Perhaps this question can be cleared up by analyzing the very first individual to be dubbed Jew: “There was a Jewish man in Shushan the capital, whose name was Mordechai the son of Yair... a Benjaminite” (Esther 2:5). Yes, the first “Jew” was actually from the tribe of Benjamin! An objective study of the Purim story reveals that the whole frightening episode was plainly avoidable. The entire incident was a result of Mordechai’s obstinate adherence to a code of behavior, which was clearly outdated and inappropriate for the times. Mordechai was an elderly rabbi who yet recalled days – more than half a century beforehand – when the Holy Temple stood in Jerusalem and Torah Law was supreme. His snubbing of Haman might have been condign during that generation—but how dare he put his entire nation in danger of extinction by slighting the king’s favorite minister? Apparently someone neglected to inform this sage that the ability to conform is the trick to survival! The entire incident was a result of Mordechai’s obstinate adherence to a code of behavior, which was clearly outdated and inappropriate for the times Mordechai, however, thought otherwise; and he had a famous precedent supporting his “foolish” actions. Many years earlier, a powerful Egyptian ruler wished to take his ancestor, Benjamin, as a slave. Benjamin’s brother Judah wouldn’t hear of such a possibility. In what would be his proudest and most defining moment, Judah completely ignored all royal protocol, angrily approached the powerful ruler – who, unbeknownst to him, was actually their brother Joseph – and threateningly demanded Benjamin’s release. Judah is the embodiment of the exiled Israelite who must walk a thin tightrope: While he must live at peace with his neighbors, follow the law and customs of the land, and “pray for the peace of the regime,” he has the courage of his convictions to stand up against all the powers that be in order to defend his ideals. “Only our bodies were sent into exile; not our souls!” Mordechai “the Jew” was a proud student of his great-uncle Judah. He knew that Torah law forbids a Jew from bowing to Haman (and the statuette which dangled from a chain around his neck), and for him that was the final word. Indeed Judah’s and Mordechai’s actions were vindicated as events unfolded—no harm came to either of them as a result of their brave conduct. Leading by example, Mordechai succeeded in implanting this sense of pride in the hearts of the masses. When Haman issued his decree of annihilation, not one Israelite even considered abandoning his religion in order to be spared death. At that moment, we all became “Jews”. Accordingly, the Megillah is the first place where our nation as a whole is referred to as Jews. The grand story of history concludes in similar fashion as the Purim story: we are here to tell the tale and they aren’t... The name stuck. Because the next 2500 years would repeatedly test our “Jewishness”. Under countless regimes – both friendly and, as was usually the case, hostile – we struggled against friends and enemies who wished to impose their will upon us at the expense of our relationship with G-d. Again and again we proved ourselves true to G-d, earning the name Jew through oceans of blood and tears. The grand story of history concludes in similar fashion as the Purim story: we are here to tell the tale and they aren’t… The joy of Purim is greater than any other holiday because it tells the story of the nation who never allowed its soul to be shackled—the story of the Jew. Peace and Love, Sam edit: that 1st link doesn't seem to be working. i've had those quotes for years, if i can relocate it, i will post it, in shaa Allah.
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