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Post by jstwebbrowsing on Sept 21, 2013 22:52:26 GMT -6
That is what I would like to know from those that promote eternal punishment in hellfire. Is it just to create someone and sentence them to eternity in hellfire? Consider the fact that being born in the first place is not a choice you are given. It seems to me by believing in hellfire you must believe that you are forced into a covenant with God just by virtue of being born.
I mean you are forced to have eternal life through no doing of your own. Is that just?
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Post by Maggie on Sept 22, 2013 7:30:30 GMT -6
Jesus' words on the subject appear to be clear. Some believe the fiery lake/pit he was describing was reserved for satan and his fellow rebels. The Catholic Church holds that hell is not a place but, rather, a state of being and self-imposed. There are only two possibilities after death-- one will be with God or one will be without him. To be without God is to be in hell. It is a choice that the individual makes. Eternal life is a given. There is no sense in asking whether it is just. You might as easily ask if it is right that the sun rises in the east. Eternal life is the nature of reality so our choices matter very much.
Having said that, we are not given a lot of information about what happens to those who reject God. Since God is just, we can only hope that the damned will not regret the choice they made.
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Post by Woodrow LI on Sept 22, 2013 10:01:29 GMT -6
Simple answer: Yes, Hellfire is just.
We really need not know more. But being inquisitive creature we have have a desire to understand how it could be just?
I see several questions need to be answered.
1. Are we created with eternal life? or more specific are all humans created with eternal life?
Most adherents of any of the 4 Abrahamic agree there is eternal life promised for the just. But would it be fair if only the just be promised eternal life? Fairness and Justice seem to dictate that all people be created with the guarantee they will have eternal life. How they spend eternity being their own choice.
2. Do we really have a choice about where we spend eternity? Yes. it is all our own choosing. the choosing is fair as we are required to only make our choice based upon ability to understand. We know what our choices are and we know what the results of our choices will be. At least to the level of our ability to know. That is all we need know. That is what we will be judged by.
Thing we do not know is what Hellfire will be. All descriptions we have are based upon human comprehension. But we do know enough to come to the conclusion it is probably not a nice way to spend eternity.
So the whole thing comes down to absolute fairness and justice. We all have the ability to learn what our choices are and what the consequences of our choices will be. What could be more just?
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Post by jstwebbrowsing on Sept 23, 2013 15:30:56 GMT -6
First I want to say that my opinion of the afterlife does not revolve around what I think is just or unjust. There are only two possibilities after death-- one will be with God or one will be without him. To be without God is to be in hell. I would agree with this much. Most adherents of any of the 4 Abrahamic agree there is eternal life promised for the just. But would it be fair if only the just be promised eternal life? Yes I think it would be just. I don't see how an eternity of hellfire could be just at all. To me it is just punishment without any other puspose. It would be different if it were to teach discipline but it's not. It's just to punish for eternity. Of what benefit is it to anyone, including God? And I don't think it is necessarily just to force a person to have eternal life. To me it seems just to offer someone life or death, but not so much to offer them life in a paradise or life in torment since life in paradise is more than just a mental decision. It seems more just to let them decide if they want the gift of life or not. If you don't want what has been given, life, then you don't have to have it. Trying to think of what my children could do to deserve me to punish them for eternity, I come up short. Or course I am not God, but my sense of love and justice comes from God. It doesn't seem right to me to punish someone for eternity for something they never asked for. It also doesn't seem balanced to punish someone infinately for 100 years or so of wrongdoing. The Bible's justice is "eye for eye.....life for life". But in the case of hellfire doctrine it's more like "eye for an eternity of punishment". I don't see how that can be called justice. |
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Post by Woodrow LI on Sept 23, 2013 19:18:18 GMT -6
First I want to say that my opinion of the afterlife does not revolve around what I think is just or unjust. There are only two possibilities after death-- one will be with God or one will be without him. To be without God is to be in hell. I would agree with this much. Most adherents of any of the 4 Abrahamic agree there is eternal life promised for the just. But would it be fair if only the just be promised eternal life? Yes I think it would be just. I don't see how an eternity of hellfire could be just at all. To me it is just punishment without any other puspose. It would be different if it were to teach discipline but it's not. It's just to punish for eternity. Of what benefit is it to anyone, including God? And I don't think it is necessarily just to force a person to have eternal life. To me it seems just to offer someone life or death, but not so much to offer them life in a paradise or life in torment since life in paradise is more than just a mental decision. It seems more just to let them decide if they want the gift of life or not. If you don't want what has been given, life, then you don't have to have it. Trying to think of what my children could do to deserve me to punish them for eternity, I come up short. Or course I am not God, but my sense of love and justice comes from God. It doesn't seem right to me to punish someone for eternity for something they never asked for. It also doesn't seem balanced to punish someone infinately for 100 years or so of wrongdoing. The Bible's justice is "eye for eye.....life for life". But in the case of hellfire doctrine it's more like "eye for an eternity of punishment". I don't see how that can be called justice. The Islamic concept of Hell is a bit different from the Christian view. For the most part it is more like the Catholic concept of Purgatory. We do believe for most people sent to hell it will be temporary and they will eventually reach heaven. The only ones who will face eternal damnation are those unrepentant of the sin of shirk. You will find some thoughts by scholars that it may not be possible to die unrepentant of Shirk if a person is aware they have committed shirk. We are not held accountable for sins we are not aware of having committed. But if by chance there is somebody able to remain unrepentant of shirk after knowingly committed the sin, I think the attitude among scholars is they will remain in hell until whatever it is they worship can save them. (Which will never happen) We do believe there are 7 levels of Hell, the highest level seems to be similar to our current life on earth. I am not certain but it seems a person can be lifted from the lower levels, but I do not know the method that would be by, I have read some opinions that it is possible for a person to repent after death, but that is a minority view. |
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Post by jstwebbrowsing on Sept 24, 2013 19:08:37 GMT -6
As a Christian I must consider things like this scripture. "And they have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I commanded not, neither came it into my mind." (Jeremiah 7:31)
If such a thing never came into his mind, or heart according to some translations, how could he have created the same thing on a much grander scale?
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Post by Maggie on Sept 24, 2013 19:55:24 GMT -6
You appear to think that Christians uniformly believe that God has created a place of eternal torment. Some probably do but many of us see hell as a state of being that is chosen by the individual. God allows us to make the choice; he ratifies it. But we really do not have a lot of information so I think it is best to approach the matter with circumspection. I think it would be as wrong to blow it off as a tale with which to scare naughty children as it would be wrong to worry about it day and night. If we seek God and his righteousness, we can count on his friendship.
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Post by jstwebbrowsing on Sept 24, 2013 20:28:39 GMT -6
I don't really know what Catholics teach. It sounds similar to what Mormons teach that hell will be different for everyone. But hellfire, is what all the Protestants in my life believe, that it is a place of eternal fire and punishment. People will be like the burning bush of Moses' time forever and ever and ever. If it is false, which I believe it is, then it has got to be one of the most God dishonoring doctrines ever created and rather than bring people to God, it will push them away. I do not want to worship a God that would burn people for eternity. Would I out of fear? I could fake it but my heart would not be in it. To me fear of God and fear of hell are two very different things. One is wholesome and more akin to respect and the other is morbid. I don't believe God wants people to serve him out of morbid fear but out of love and respect.
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Post by Maggie on Sept 24, 2013 20:39:02 GMT -6
The absence of God, which is what a state of being without God is, is a state in which there is no love, no light, no laughter, no friendship no joy, peace or music. All these things come from God and are only possible in a universe he inhabits. Fiery flames might be preferable to an eternity without God and, indeed, perhaps God in his mercy annihilates the damned. Or, maybe, there is a way out. I just don't think we should dwell on anything so speculative, when there are much clearer matters with a very strong claim on our attention. We need to seek his kingdom and his righteousness. If we are faithful, we can count on his friendship.
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Post by jstwebbrowsing on Sept 24, 2013 20:54:12 GMT -6
Yes I agree with that, but some doctrines really get under my skin, you know. One thing. It seems to me that if you are cut off from God there is also no life.
I tried talking about the Kingdom on IGI and it did not turn out so well. But it is this good news that attracted me.
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Post by Maggie on Sept 24, 2013 21:17:54 GMT -6
Well, the Witnesses' beliefs about the Kingdom are attractive but go beyond what can legitimately be derived from the New Testament. Our human need for certainty leads us too often astray. It is very understandable but we have to guard against making an idol of our own wishes.
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Post by jstwebbrowsing on Sept 24, 2013 21:43:00 GMT -6
I didn't even get very far. I got stuck defending the value of prophecy to a Christian and didn't really even touch on any actual beliefs. I mentioned some, but I might as well not have.
And you are right. The Witnesses use the whole Bible to understand the kingdom and it is attractive and it is different. The Witnesses view it as a real theocratic kingdom. I would be surprised if a Catholic would not at least agree with it is a theocratic kingdom. Do you agree with that much?
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Post by Maggie on Sept 25, 2013 6:33:36 GMT -6
The saved will reign with Christ. We believe judgment follows death. We do not believe in a 1000 year reign or anything like that. After death come judgment, heaven (or purgatory--the souls in it are assured of their salvation) or hell. What reigning with Christ means is not spelled out in scripture. I think there is a reason so little is told to us about what comes after this life. First of all, it is beyond our experience and our speculations can easily lead us into heresies which mislead us and anyone who listens to us. Then I could imagine fixing all our energy on the life to come and neglecting the things that urgently need doing in this one.
The older I get the more I see the wisdom of fixing my eyes on Jesus.
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Post by jstwebbrowsing on Sept 25, 2013 9:29:05 GMT -6
I am like this. The more I learn about God and his purposes the closer I come to him. That is not the only thing that brings me close to him but it is a primary thing. What brings you close to God?
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Post by Maggie on Sept 25, 2013 10:07:33 GMT -6
It is almost always other people who bring me closer to God. It can be something as simple as watching a new father fuss over his tiny infant which fills me with joy. Sometimes I simply cannot say. I had an experience nearly 30 years ago that has never left me. I was teaching 1st year German on a Saturday at 8:30 a.m. (!!!!. Yes, that university which shall remain nameless had Saturday morning classes.) One poor soul, obviously hung over, was trying to conjugate a verb while the rest of the class stifled its yawns and tried to appear awake. All of a sudden I was hit with a wave of love for them so strong that it nearly knocked me off my feet. I remember being startled and wondering if what I had just experienced had been noticed by the students. But no, they were still yawning-- some had given up and gone to sleep and my poor victim was still trying to remember how to conjugate a verb. But for some reason God sent me a message.
Later I started calling these experiences "golden moments". I remember one with the greatest pleasure. I had been really sick with pneumonia and its aftermath for a good month. But Easter had come and I just wasn't going to stay in bed and miss it. So I forced myself to get up and dress and go to mass. I was depressed because I had felt unwell for so long and was sure that I would never feel better. Well, I hadn't been seated very long when I felt a blow to the back of my head. It was too hard to have been an accident but too soft to hurt. So I turned around only to find myself looking straight into the smiling face of Charlie Brown. I guess he must have been about 9 months old and had the roundest, baldest head I have ever seen. He burst out laughing when I looked at him and, I couldn't help it, I burst out laughing at that comical baby too. I cannot say why but my black mood lifted immediately and I knew at that moment that I would be well again.
I have a million more stories like that but the quality of those experiences cannot be conveyed. Perhaps they are particular to me. But joy is not. That is what we are called to and so maybe that is why these experiences tend to be so meaningful to me.
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Post by jstwebbrowsing on Sept 25, 2013 10:30:31 GMT -6
I do really appreciate moments like that. The one that sticks out in my mind the most is when the twins were little. I had taught them about God but hadn't really sat down to teach them the Bible. I still questioned if they were old enough to understand, but I got a book of Bible stories and started in the beginning with Adam and Eve. Even though the book was pretty simple I still had to stop here are there and exlain things. Once we got to the part of Adam and Eve disobeying God and the results of it they both started crying.
That just had such a profound effect on me. I sat there for a moment in disbelief. I just couldn't believe how involved they were in the story and how emotionally attached they were to it and to God at such an early age. Right then I knew they were in fact old enough and that my children were a real blessing to me from God.
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