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Post by Maggie on Sept 11, 2013 18:01:49 GMT -6
I was thrilled to learn today that Pope Francis continues to amaze and delight all who love God and God's people. He sent a letter to a famous atheist journalist which was published on the front page of La Repubblica, Italy's national,lefty version of the New York Times. In it he says clearly what I have said a million times on atheist, atheist/theist boards to the rousing sounds of utter disbelief. Let me quote:
God has never abandoned the covenant with the Jewish people, and the church "can never be grateful enough" to the Jews for preserving their faith despite the horrors of history, especially the Shoah, the Hebrew word for the Holocaust.
God's mercy "does not have limits" and therefore it reaches nonbelievers, too, for whom sin would not be the lack of faith in God, but rather, failure to obey one's conscience.
Truth is not "variable or subjective," but Francis says he avoids calling it "absolute" -- truth possesses us, he said, not the other way around, and it's always expressed according to someone's "history and culture, the situation in which they live, etc."
This is such good news. It seems like you cannot say important things often enough. It is also a matter of rejoicing that he is engaging the culture on its turf by answering questions put to him by the journalist . I am really wanting to see the English translation when it is made. Of course, I also want to see the journalist's response. This could be the start of a real dialogue.
This follows on the Pope's impassioned remarks earlier in the week about our obligations to the poor. He stated as well that empty convents could be put to better use as homes for the poor than as hotels:
The Lord is calling us to live with more courage and generosity the welcome in the communities, in homes, in empty convents … Dearest men and women religious, the empty convents are useless to the Church if they are transformed into hotels and earn money. The empty convents aren't ours; they are for Christ’s flesh, which the refugees are. The Lord calls us to live with generosity and courage hospitality in empty convents. It certainly isnt something simple; we need criteria, responsibility, but also courage.
I can't help but think that the Spirit is moving mightily in our day.
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Post by jstwebbrowsing on Sept 12, 2013 21:36:26 GMT -6
I'm a bit confused. Is he saying Judaism is an acceptable religion if you are a Jew?
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Post by Maggie on Sept 12, 2013 21:49:28 GMT -6
I'm a bit confused. Is he saying Judaism is an acceptable religion if you are a Jew? He is saying that the covenant God made with them cannot be broken. They are still his chosen people. How their salvation will be brought about is something we cannot know but with God all things are possible. |
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Post by jstwebbrowsing on Sept 12, 2013 21:53:38 GMT -6
The way I understand it is that Christ was the fulfillment of that covenant. It's not broken, it's completed, or at least that phase of it was completed. If they wish to make themselves a part of the fulfillment of other promises about the Kingdom then they are free to do so.
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Post by jstwebbrowsing on Sept 12, 2013 21:55:34 GMT -6
I believe the covenant with them was to be rulers of that kingdom
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john
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Post by john on Sept 13, 2013 7:18:30 GMT -6
For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. (Hebrews 8:7)
I believe the first covenant* between God and the Jews was broken.
The Jews broke it numerous times from the time of exodus until the Christ.
*'Obey me and do everything I command you, and you will be my people, and I will be your God. (Jeremiah 11:4)
That's why Christ had to come and make new covenant with the Jews and that also fulfills the prophecy that "through Abraham's descendant every nation will be blessed". (salvation of gentiles)
In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you. (Luke 22:20)
Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel. (Hebrews 12:24)
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Post by jstwebbrowsing on Sept 13, 2013 9:28:15 GMT -6
Yes that is what I believe too John. Here is Jesus condemnation of them. "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, that killeth the prophets, and stoneth them that are sent unto her! how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her own brood under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left to you desolate: and truly I say to you, You shall not see me, until the time come when you shall say, Blessed is he that comes in the name of the Lord."
Jesus was quoting Psalms 118:26 "Blessed be he that cometh in the name of Jehovah...."
I believe it was always God's purpose to have a kingdom over all of mankind. The covenant with the Jews is they were to be rulers and priests in that kingdom. This opportunity to become priests of the kingdom was offered first to the Jews by Christ himself. He did not go to the Gentiles. "But he answered and said, I am not sent but to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." (Mt 15:24)
Those Jews that did respond and became disciples of Jesus will serve as kings and priests in that kingdom. However, as a whole they rejected their own king. After a time therefore the opportunity to be "grafted in" to this covenant was offered to the gentiles and some of them will be selected to become kings and priests in that kingdom. Compare.
"And you shall be to me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which you shall speak to the children of Israel." (Exodus 19:6)
"Unto him that loveth us, and loosed us from our sins by his blood; and he made us to be a kingdom, to be priests unto his God and Father; to him be the glory and the dominion for ever and ever. Amen." (Rev 1:6)
"Worthy art thou to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou was slain, and didst purchase unto God with thy blood men of every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation, and madest them to be unto our God a kingdom and priests; and they reign upon earth." (Rev 5:9,10)
Notice in Revelation this kingdom of priests are taken from "every tribe...."
Peter concluded, "I most certainly understand now that God is not one to show partiality, 35 but in every nation the man who [y]fears Him and [z]does what is right is welcome to Him." (Acts 10:25)
Of course Peter was one of those Jews that did respond to his king and will see the fullfillment of all the promises.
Perhaps the Jews will sometime have a universal conversion but I am not going to hold my breath.
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Post by Maggie on Sept 13, 2013 12:20:39 GMT -6
The gifts and the call of God are irrevocable.
The problem with all those bodies that have broken away from the Church that Christ established is that they elevate their limited, culturally bound understanding above that of Christ who established the Church and guaranteed its teachings 2000 years ago. A right understanding of the Church is critical for believers. One can read learned treatises on the subject but, thankfully, the Catechism is pretty darned good at explaining the basics. So I shall quote from it to get this started in the right direction. Each paragraph in the catechism is numbered so that it can be found easily:
Who belongs to the Catholic Church?
836 "All men are called to this catholic unity of the People of God. . . . And to it, in different ways, belong or are ordered: the Catholic faithful, others who believe in Christ, and finally all mankind, called by God's grace to salvation."
Blessed John Paul II who edited this edition of the Catechism refers to Lumen Gentium (Light of the Nations, a dogmatic constitution written by Paul VI in 1964) to explain this paragraph more fully. It is a beautiful meditation on the people of God--who they are. Pope Paul speaks first of the Jews in this paragraph:
16. Finally, those who have not yet received the Gospel are related in various ways to the people of God. In the first place we must recall the people to whom the testament and the promises were given and from whom Christ was born according to the flesh. On account of their fathers this people remains most dear to God, for God does not repent of the gifts He makes nor of the calls He issues. But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Muslims, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind. Nor is God far distant from those who in shadows and images seek the unknown God, for it is He who gives to all men life and breath and all things, and as Saviour wills that all men be saved. Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience. Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life. Whatever good or truth is found amongst them is looked upon by the Church as a preparation for the Gospel.
For the sake of brevity I have to skip over some really good stuff and go to paragraph 839 in the Catechism where Blessed John Paul speaks again specifically of the Jews:
839 "Those who have not yet received the Gospel are related to the People of God in various ways.
The relationship of the Church with the Jewish People. When she delves into her own mystery, the Church, the People of God in the New Covenant, discovers her link with the Jewish People, "the first to hear the Word of God." The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God's revelation in the Old Covenant. To the Jews "belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ", "for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable."
840 And when one considers the future, God's People of the Old Covenant and the new People of God tend towards similar goals: expectation of the coming (or the return) of the Messiah. But one awaits the return of the Messiah who died and rose from the dead and is recognized as Lord and Son of God; the other awaits the coming of a Messiah, whose features remain hidden till the end of time; and the latter waiting is accompanied by the drama of not knowing or of misunderstanding Christ Jesus.
He goes on to speak of Muslims:
841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."
842 The Church's bond with non-Christian religions is in the first place the common origin and end of the human race:
All nations form but one community. This is so because all stem from the one stock which God created to people the entire earth, and also because all share a common destiny, namely God. His providence, evident goodness, and saving designs extend to all against the day when the elect are gathered together in the holy city. .
843 The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as "a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life."
Even though some will reject him, Christ came to gather all. The Church has not lost sight of that, which may explain why I was so happy to hear Pope Francis say it again!
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john
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Post by john on Sept 13, 2013 15:15:39 GMT -6
I will read your post thoroughly and get back to you next week.  |
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Post by Maggie on Sept 13, 2013 18:52:41 GMT -6
No Salvation Outside the Church60 The people descended from Abraham would be the trustee of the promise made to the patriarchs, the chosen people, called to prepare for that day when God would gather all his children into the unity of the Church. They would be the root on to which the Gentiles would be grafted, once they came to believe.
61 The patriarchs, prophets and certain other Old Testament figures have been and always will be honored as saints in all the Church's liturgical traditions.
God forms his people Israel
62 After the patriarchs, God formed Israel as his people by freeing them from slavery in Egypt. He established with them the covenant of Mount Sinai and, through Moses, gave them his law so that they would recognize him and serve him as the one living and true God, the provident Father and just judge, and so that they would look for the promised Savior.
63 Israel is the priestly people of God, "called by the name of the LORD", and "the first to hear the word of God", the people of "elder brethren" in the faith of Abraham.
64 Through the prophets, God forms his people in the hope of salvation, in the expectation of a new and everlasting Covenant intended for all, to be written on their hearts. The prophets proclaim a radical redemption of the People of God, purification from all their infidelities, a salvation which will include all the nations. Above all, the poor and humble of the Lord will bear this hope. Such holy women as Sarah, Rebecca, Rachel, Miriam, Deborah, Hannah, Judith and Esther kept alive the hope of Israel's salvation. The purest figure among them is Mary-- Catechism. I am not sure that outsiders always understand how absolutely the RCC believes that salvation is open to all and that the saved will be called from east and west to gather around the Lord's table. So what does it mean when we say that there is no salvation outside the Church? Who is in the Church? Well, that is not so easy to say. The middle of the Church is brightly lit and it is easy to see who is there. But the corners and the outer perimeter lie in shadows and it is not so easy to see who is there. There will be surprises. Jesus himself told a parable that we should never lose sight of:
“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
“Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’
“Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’
“The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’
“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’
“They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’
“He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’
“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.” (Matt. 25: 31-46)
It is hard to miss that the righteous nations did not know Jesus but did what is right in his eyes. So when Pope Francis said that even atheists could be saved he did not mean haters of God but those who do not know him but still do what is right. This is divine knowledge that has been planted in all human hearts.
The quality that the righteous exhibited was mercy. So perhaps it isn't odd that this pope has been urging and demonstrating mercy in some very unusual ways. He has developed a habit of picking up the phone and calling people who have written him letters describing some need or sorrow they have endured. One such call took place to a 30+ single woman who had had a baby as a result of an adulterous affair. (Women apparently never learn. It seems she didn't know he was married. He only revealed that as he told her to go get an abortion.). Her fear was that she would not be able to find a priest to baptize her baby and could the pope help? His response was that he would baptize the baby himself, if she had the slightest trouble finding a priest close to home.*
Mercy. At his very first homily after being elected, the new pope said, "For me, and I say this humbly, the strongest message of the Lord is mercy."
If we keep this in mind, it is much easier to understand why the Jews are still God's chosen people and why he will keep his promises to them. Those same promises have been extended to us all. We have a merciful God who keeps his word.
*I am unaware that any priest refuses to baptize illegitimate babies. That may be a cultural matter.
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Post by Woodrow LI on Sept 15, 2013 7:46:41 GMT -6
I am quite impressed with Pope Francis. Just may be the best Pope since Pope John and John-Paul ll
I see a chance for better Christian/Muslim relations.
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