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Post by Woodrow LI on Apr 17, 2014 17:15:40 GMT -6
I don't even understand why the problems with Palestine continue. It's like everyone wants a piece of it and they're willing to do anything necessary to get it. Also I know the West is not innocent but I understand it. Take Israel for example. I'm sure the government supports them for militarily strategic reasons. But there are a lot of Christians in this country that believe, contrary to the Bible, that Israel over in the middle east is still God's chosen nation. Therefore to them, anyone that is an enemy of Israel is an enemy of God. But what I am trying to figure out is the reasonings behind the Muslims they oppose. To many Muslims they are fighting a holy war. Why? Have to keep in mind, Gaza is much like a concentration camp. There is no work there is no free passage in and out of Gaza. There is no way to control the radicals that keep making home made rockets and fire them at Israel, each time Israel retaliating with massive air strikes. The West bank is a bit better. but illegal Israeli settlers keep building and taking land. Olive trees that have been in the same family for over 1000 years have been bulldozed down to make Israeli settlements. It is not a religious issue as even the Christian and Jewish Palestinians are opposed to Israel Although Israel did manage to evict all the Jewish Muslims out of Gaza there still are some in the West bank. there are quite a few Christine Palestinians left in Gaza and the West Bank, but like the Palestinian Jews many have migrated to Arab Nations. Last I looked Gaza was about 10% Christian Palestinians and 20% for the west Bank. Prior to 1946 the Palestinians were about 75% Muslim and the remainder Christian and Jewish. Nearly all Palestinians have Jewish Ancestors that converted to Islam about 1000 years ago. It is not a Jewish/Muslim issue it is a Palestinian/Israel issue. Many of the Arab Jews did not desire the Nation of Israel to be formed and feel it is against Judaism as the third temple has not been built. Israel has become predominately Ashkanazi Jewish instead of Hebrew, many of whom are non-practicing and about 30% are atheist. Jews in Israel protesting Zionism SOURCE
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Post by jstwebbrowsing on Apr 19, 2014 17:10:48 GMT -6
Well if they'll all so worried about it why don't they build a temple?
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Post by Woodrow LI on Apr 20, 2014 13:02:30 GMT -6
Well if they'll all so worried about it why don't they build a temple? If I understand correctly they believe the Messiah will build the Temple. Currently under Judaic law a Jew is forbidden to step foot on the Temple Mount. It was last used as a Waste Dump by the Romans before the Mosque was built there. Orthodox Jews believe they are forbidden to step foot on the grounds there until after the third Temple is build. A bit of a paradox, under Orthodox Judaism. They are not to have a nation of their own until the third Temple is built, but they are forbidden to build it.
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Post by jstwebbrowsing on Apr 27, 2014 19:58:59 GMT -6
So whadya think Woodrow? What's is gonna take to change your mind? :)
Here are a couple questions I've thought of. What is justice? What is mercy? Can mercy circumvent justice?
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Post by Woodrow LI on Apr 28, 2014 11:28:32 GMT -6
So whadya think Woodrow? What's is gonna take to change your mind? :) Here are a couple questions I've thought of. What is justice? What is mercy? Can mercy circumvent justice? Both Justice and Mercy are attributes of Allaah(swt) They are deeply entwined as forms of love. Mercy is love, Justice is Love. Neither circumvents the other, together they define our eternal future. Justice is our assurance that we will be punished for the evil we do with knowledge and of our own free will. And the assurance we will be rewarded for the good we do. Mercy is our assurance we will not be punished beyond what we have earned and we shall be rewarded many times more than what we have earned.
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Post by jstwebbrowsing on Apr 28, 2014 19:41:43 GMT -6
Yeah I somehow knew you'd have a pretty good answer. :P
What is just punishment for sin?
Why do we sin?
Why can't we live sinless?
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Post by Woodrow LI on Apr 28, 2014 22:10:27 GMT -6
Yeah I somehow knew you'd have a pretty good answer. :P What is just punishment for sin? Why do we sin? Why can't we live sinless? While sin can include the deliberate violating of revealed law, that is not a definition. The definition of sin is anything that keeps us from fully submitting to Allaah(swt). For many sins perhaps most there is no punishment, they keep us from reaching what we could have reached. Sort of like climbing a ladder to reach a banana on the top rung. We start climbing that ladder and stop when we reach the Peach and never continue on to the banana, which is what our goal was. A just punishment for sin is what we are told will happen if we do it. Under this view of sin as commandments (See 1. and 5 below) we know what we are not to do, we know what is the maximum punishment if we knowingly and deliberately do such. to violate a commandment things are needed. We need to know the commandment exists. We need to know what the punishment for doing it will be we need to do it of our own free choice and willingly accept the responsibility for our action. There is no actual defined lines as to what a sin is and what any punishment are, We live levels of responsibility.. 1. Those things that are commanded and we are told there will be a punishment if we fail to do them. We know what we are commanded to do and what will happen if we don't do them 2. There are things we are not required to do but we will get rewarded for doing them if we choose to 3. All the things we are not commanded to not do 4. Things we are not commanded to avoid, but will be rewarded for avoiding. 5. Things we are commanded not to do and we will be punished if we do them. We know wjat we are commanded not to do and we know the consequences if we willingly do them. It is impossible to not sin unless one is perfect. But we can avoid intending to sin and deliberately sinning. In this phyical realm called Earth we live an imperfect life and as such we can not achieve full submission to Allaah(swt)
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Post by jstwebbrowsing on Apr 28, 2014 22:32:52 GMT -6
It does not make sense to me that God would create us imperfect. It's like starting us out in debt. That seems a bit contrary to justice to me. Why are we imperfect?
And what are the actual punishments for sins?
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Post by Woodrow LI on Apr 29, 2014 12:06:14 GMT -6
It does not make sense to me that God would create us imperfect. It's like starting us out in debt. That seems a bit contrary to justice to me. Why are we imperfect? And what are the actual punishments for sins? Our current corporal body with all of it's needs and temptations is perfect for what it is intended. A Trial and an opportunity to develop to perfection, The Angels are perfect, all lower animals are perfect as they are at the peak of what they were intended to be., It is only Man and Djinn that are imperfect and have the choice of deciding if they want perfection. We will never know, what the actual punishments for sin will be unless we are the ones who face them. We do know that we will pay for all evil we do, that can be on earth, in the grave, in the hereafter or in any combination. While we do believe in the existence of hell we do not see it as eternal except for the sin of shirk. We also see it as containing 7 levels ranging from very mild punishment to very severe. We do believe that many, perhaps most people will spend a period of time in Hell and eventually reach Heaven. As for what punishments are rendered in Hell they are described in many ways: Fire, boiling water, despair, Bitter water to drink and bitter fruit to eat, no rest etc. Some of us consider the descriptions to be metaphorical and expressed in material terms, others believe the descriptions are to be taken literally. In either event the message is, it is not where we want to be.
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Post by jstwebbrowsing on Apr 29, 2014 13:14:02 GMT -6
Do you really believe that in your heart? That God would have torture in the afterlife? Look at this. Maggie this is for you to think about too. Here is a mention of Gehenna. "And they have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I commanded not, neither came it into my mind." (Jer 7:31)
Do you really believe in your heart that Jehovah is going to torture his children, or even his creation? Which trait of his would allow this? Right there he said such a thing has never even come into his mind.
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Post by Maggie on Apr 29, 2014 19:04:57 GMT -6
JST-- you have to quit picking and choosing verses to make them support whatever you want and you must, you must read in context. You also need to be aware of what the first generation of Christians believed about these important matters. They had their teaching straight from the Apostles or those trained directly by them. The verse you have cited is God denouncing the people of Judah for sacrificing to false gods and sacrificing their children. He was constantly having to forbid human sacrifice which is what he is talking about here.
The Bible simply isn't the be all and end all of Christian doctrinal understanding, although you can gather quite a bit from it. You must let a knowledge of history help you interpret correctly, especially since you do not listen to the Church whose teaching Christ guaranteed. He did not guarantee the Bible. You cannot look to other men who don't have the deep knowledge of history, the ancient languages and the knowledge of what Christians from day 1 believed to lead you. That is the blind leading the blind.
Jesus is quite clear as is all the New Testament that those who reject God will have their decision respected by Him. He does not reject anyone. Men reject him. And they will be punished. Just exactly how jolly do you think an eternity without love, friendship, or any other good thing could possibly be? All those wonderful things come from God. We will either enjoy them eternally with Him or we will go our own way. One does not have to believe in physical torment to believe in Hell.
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Post by Woodrow LI on Apr 29, 2014 20:36:04 GMT -6
Do you really believe that in your heart? That God would have torture in the afterlife? Look at this. Maggie this is for you to think about too. Here is a mention of Gehenna. "And they have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I commanded not, neither came it into my mind." (Jer 7:31) Do you really believe in your heart that Jehovah is going to torture his children, or even his creation? Which trait of his would allow this? Right there he said such a thing has never even come into his mind. Keep in mind Hebrew and Arabic are very similar languages. Both have the same origin. Hebrew stopped being a spoken language by the 2nd Century CE The meanings of many Hebrew words were lost. In Arabic there is the word Jahannam From the Hebrew Gehennom and has 3 meanings "that which breaks to pieces" "Blazing Fire" and "Abyss" It is the place where those who have died with unforgiven sins will go for punishment. As Arabic developed at about the same time Hebrew had ceased to be a spoken language it has the same meaning as the Hebrew had. In the late 1800s when Hebrew began to be reconstructed, much of the reconstruction came from Arabic. as it is the language most like ancient Hebrew.
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Post by jstwebbrowsing on Apr 30, 2014 19:28:16 GMT -6
Yes I know that's a bit out of context, but the question is that if such a thing never came into his mind then how is it he has done the same thing, or something similar on a grander scale? I mean what is our choice? God or torture? How can you torture someone into loving you? And how is that free choice? What if my choice is just to not accept God's gift, life? I read that the offical Catholic stance is that hell is not a place but a state of complete seperation from God. The Bible agrees. But is not a state of complete seperation from God not death? He is going to sustain our life just so he can torture us? I mean that is like the worst possible form of torture. What trait of God would allow for this? In Arabic there is the word Jahannam From the Hebrew Gehennom and has 3 meanings "that which breaks to pieces" "Blazing Fire" and "Abyss" It is the place where those who have died with unforgiven sins will go for punishment. Something broken in peices is destroyed. An abyss is limitless. Something put in a blazing fire is consumed. To me this seems to give the idea of everlasting destruction. I can also see where destruction is a just punishment. But I can't see how torture is a just punishment. Destruction makes the choice become you can live or not live. Two opposites. Gift or no gift. Be alive forever or be dead forever. Eye for eye, life for life. This makes the scales of justice balance. Eternal torture does not, it's infinitely lop sided.
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Post by Maggie on Apr 30, 2014 19:55:55 GMT -6
One of the more horrifying things I have ever heard (it was from a Muslim) is that Muslims believe that the condemned man or woman has his or her skin renewed continually in order that it might consumed by fire over and over again eternally. The mind boggles but the idea is consistent with eternal punishment in the flames of hell. I just hope it isn't true.
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Post by jstwebbrowsing on Apr 30, 2014 20:49:55 GMT -6
The only reason I would worship such a God would be out of morbid fear. Is that the sort of worship God wants? Where is the glory in that? A healthy fear of God is good but that is altogether different than a morbid fear.
Any punishment from God would be to correct bad bahavior, not just for the sake of punishment as would be the case for eternal torture. I mean that's not just exacting, that's vindicitive. I do not find that to be in harmony with God's nature.
Also on the point of seeing what it's like to live without God. We are seeing that now to a degree. While God is present for those that love him, he is not ruling the earth. He is in ultimate control, meaning he's set limits, but Satan is the one that rules this earth (Jn 12:31). No, I'm not saying earth is hell. But it is an example of life without God. This is the cause of all human suffering. Man is without God.
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Post by Woodrow LI on Apr 30, 2014 21:03:52 GMT -6
One of the more horrifying things I have ever heard (it was from a Muslim) is that Muslims believe that the condemned man or woman has his or her skin renewed continually in order that it might consumed by fire over and over again eternally. The mind boggles but the idea is consistent with eternal punishment in the flames of hell. I just hope it isn't true. That is described as a possible punishment for those in the lowest level of Hell. There is a whole range of possible punishments ranging from mild, the description of which gives the impression that it is metaphorical. And one description of the highest level is that the Hell fire will come no higher than your ankles. I am one of the Muslims that believes the descriptions are not to be taken literal, but seen as analogies to help explain what we can not understand. The message I read is those who have unforgiven sins will be punished for them before entering heaven. There is a very wide range of punishments, some tolerable and some beyond what we can imagine. The time spent in hell can be from a very short time to eternity. Many Muslim theologians are of the opinion that no one will be in Hell for eternity. As it seems doubtful anyone could meet the criteria to be sent to eternal hell.
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