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Post by jstwebbrowsing on Aug 21, 2013 20:51:41 GMT -6
Rather than produce a good amount of information, I would ask that anyone that is curious to read the information at the link below. Plus there are a significant number of scriptures you can read by just hovering over them with your mouse or clicking on them to get the context. Or you can look them up the old fashioned way, by using an online Bible. wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1200004192?q=immortal+soul&p=parI would welcome any discussion on the matter.
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Post by Maggie on Aug 22, 2013 8:28:33 GMT -6
This is a great topic but I haven't had time to do more than skim what you have linked to. I want to read it carefully and then revisit.
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Post by questionmark on Aug 22, 2013 10:19:13 GMT -6
The author misunderstands what death is in Scripture. To die is not to cease to exist. Therefore the ENTIRE argument falls apart entirely. When Adam and Eve ate of the fruit they died, their death continued in punishment and misery, and then their bodies ceased but Adam and Eve did not cease to exist.
Jesus said that Abraham Isaac and Jacob are still alive. Yet we know that their bodies died, and they are not here. Proof conclusive, final, total and certain that the person persists the corruption of the body.
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Post by jstwebbrowsing on Aug 22, 2013 15:54:39 GMT -6
What part of you survives death?
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Post by Woodrow LI on Aug 22, 2013 16:11:30 GMT -6
This raises an interesting question. Do you believe in the Resurrection? If so what will be resurrected if there is no body?
Such as those who died in the nuclear blasts of Nagasaki and Hiroshima. Those vaporized were actually changed from physical matter to energy, probably light. Not just a chemical change to ashes
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Post by jstwebbrowsing on Aug 22, 2013 16:41:20 GMT -6
I am very glad you brought that up. A resurrection from the dead is exactly what we believe. But we don't believe that a reuniting of soul and body means resurrection. One must be dead to be resurrected from the dead. The Bible mentions a first and second resurrection. We believe the first resurrection will be the resurrection of the "elect", which contains the apostles and the earliest Jewish Christians, and later some gentiles joined their numbers and these will receive a resurrection to heavenly life. These will become co-rulers with Christ in his kingdom, as was promised to Abraham by God. We believe the opportunity to make up the full number of these was offered to the Jews by Christ and the apostles, but their rejection of him, caused the privelege to be offered to gentiles. We believe this resurrection occured during the beginning of the "last days" which we believe we are now living in. Any remaining "elect" living now,upon death, with be changed "in the twinking of an eye", meaning the resurrection is immediate. They will not all "sleep in death" as was promised. We believe all the rest of mankind, all those that have not committed the unforgivable sin, will be resurrected upon the earth, and this is the second resurrection. Their bodies will be recreated, their memories restored, etc. It will be the same soul that died. For now, they exist only in God's memory in their "memorial tombs". During this time all governments will have been replaced by God's heavenly kingdom. God, once again, through Christ, will become king of the earth. Mankind will then be lifted to perfection. Godly people will adjust easily while ungodly people will have a harder time. And during this time it is still possible to commit the unforgivable sin and be cast out of the kingdom. For some it will prove to be a "resurrection of life" and for some it will prove to be a "resurrection of judgement". All others will be cast into the lake of fire, gehenna. I will ask that you guys read just a little bit more information about Hell. This lends more scriptural support to the argument. It is shorter than the first. wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1101989234?q=hell&p=par
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Post by jstwebbrowsing on Aug 22, 2013 16:46:40 GMT -6
Oh, and we believe those resurrected to heaven will be resurrected as spirits, and will be similar to angels.
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Post by questionmark on Aug 22, 2013 20:37:26 GMT -6
What part of me survives death? What sort of death are you talking about? I was spiritually dead in sin, having no life in myself. Now I am spiritually alive but my body is dead. My body will soon cease to work and then its death will be complete. I will be raised in a new body.
So what does the question mean? "What part of you survives death"? A. What part of me survives spiritual death? Every part of me which isn't in direct connection to God survives spiritual death. B. What part of me survives the completion of physical death? Every part of me that isn't my physical body survives physical death.
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Post by francis on Aug 23, 2013 18:47:07 GMT -6
This raises an interesting question. Do you believe in the Resurrection? If so what will be resurrected if there is no body? Such as those who died in the nuclear blasts of Nagasaki and Hiroshima. Those vaporized were actually changed from physical matter to energy, probably light. Not just a chemical change to ashes I don't think that would be an issue or a stumbling block with a God who created the entire universe to begin with. After all, didn't God create the universe out of nothing to begin with? So why can't He do the same thing with a body that is vaporized, etc? Best Regards Francis
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Post by jstwebbrowsing on Aug 23, 2013 19:37:31 GMT -6
What part of me survives death? What sort of death are you talking about? I was spiritually dead in sin, having no life in myself. Now I am spiritually alive but my body is dead. My body will soon cease to work and then its death will be complete. I will be raised in a new body. So what does the question mean? "What part of you survives death"? A. What part of me survives spiritual death? Every part of me which isn't in direct connection to God survives spiritual death. B. What part of me survives the completion of physical death? Every part of me that isn't my physical body survives physical death. Could you be more specific? What part survives the death of the body? I will be raised in a new body. I agree, but when will this occur?
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Post by questionmark on Aug 25, 2013 18:21:15 GMT -6
JST, All of the dead will be raised, when those in Christ are raised, by grace I will be too.
The part of me that survives the death of the body is the part of me that experiences.
My body sees wavelengths, I see blue. I have a body, I am a soul.
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Post by jstwebbrowsing on Aug 25, 2013 21:06:43 GMT -6
I too believe all of the dead will be raised, all those that have not commited the unforgivable sin.
I believe only spirit (life force which will return to God) will survive the death of the body until resurrection. Until resurrection I believe people will "sleep in death". SBut for them, resurrection will at least seem immediate.
I believe I am a soul, but I don't believe I can operate apart from a body.
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Post by questionmark on Aug 26, 2013 1:33:50 GMT -6
The Bible says all the dead will be raised, not just those who have not committed the unforgiveable sin.
It specifically says that some will be raised to eternal torment, and Jesus speaks of eternal fire.
If this is not the case, then Jesus is lying, by threatening people with a reality that doesn't exist.
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Post by Woodrow LI on Aug 26, 2013 10:58:13 GMT -6
I too believe all of the dead will be raised, all those that have not commited the unforgivable sin. I believe only spirit (life force which will return to God) will survive the death of the body until resurrection. Until resurrection I believe people will "sleep in death". SBut for them, resurrection will at least seem immediate. I believe I am a soul, but I don't believe I can operate apart from a body. I don't see how "I believe only spirit (life force which will return to God) will survive the death of the body until resurrection." differs from the concept of the Soul. Seems like different wording for the same thing.
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Post by Maggie on Aug 26, 2013 11:06:56 GMT -6
Christianity teaches the resurrection of the body and the soul. It is interesting to me to see how hard it is for us to accept that. We don't seem to have a problem conceptually with the notion of a disembodied soul or spirit which, if I stop to think about it, seems far more unlikely than a resurrected body and soul. But the God who spoke stars, worlds, dark matter and the entire universe into being is more than capable of giving us new bodies. My new one better be a lot better looking than my old one, however ...
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Post by jstwebbrowsing on Aug 26, 2013 13:27:27 GMT -6
I don't see how "I believe only spirit (life force which will return to God) will survive the death of the body until resurrection." differs from the concept of the Soul. Seems like different wording for the same thing. The difference is that JWs believe that life force is an impersonal force and not something that is conscious. It's simply the "breath of life" that is shared by all creatures and there is nothing unique about it from individual to individual. A human body + breath of life = human soul. The soul is more than just the body, being the very representation of who we are, our thoughts, our dreams, etc., but it doesn't operate apart from a body. Christianity teaches the resurrection of the body and the soul. It is interesting to me to see how hard it is for us to accept that. We don't seem to have a problem conceptually with the notion of a disembodied soul or spirit which, if I stop to think about it, seems far more unlikely than a resurrected body and soul. But the God who spoke stars, worlds, dark matter and the entire universe into being is more than capable of giving us new bodies. My new one better be a lot better looking than my old one, however ... That is what I believe, a resurrection of body and soul. Those resurrected to heaven will be given spiritual bodies and immediately become incorruptible and immortal, like Christ himself. And JWs don't view these as somehow better Christians as many people think, although they are by the time of their death, mature and integrity keeping Christians, and most die a sacrificial death (martyrs), just like the apostles did so they are all good Christians, but that doesn't make them better than all other Christians. They do not earn the right to become "elect", it just means they were called. It is possible for them to backslide and bring judgement upon themselves in a very serious way. For them, this pretty much means the unforgivable sin. Those resurrected upon the earth will be resurrected in bodies just like the ones that died. Christ, and those with him, will then begin healing mankind. The blind will begin seeing, the lame will begin walking, the old will become young, etc., until mankind has reached perfection, both morally and physically and mankind will become what God originally intended. JWs believe that each individual is responsible for determining if they have an earthly calling or a heavenly calling. There are no tests that are conducted by the elders or anything like that. Each person is said to know by virtue of holy spirit and should make their heavenly calling known. The seriousness of the matter is stressed however, in that anyone proclaiming a heavenly calling that does not have one is taking the blood and body of Christ in an unworthy way.
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Post by Maggie on Aug 26, 2013 15:00:00 GMT -6
There is no agreement among us about the body-- whether it will be a new one, the one we were born in or the one we died in. I certainly know what I am hoping for. But It will not be some merely spiritual body. It will be a real flesh and blood body in which we will eat, drink, and all the rest. Just like Jesus did after his resurrection. Whether we will be able to walk through walls? I cannot say. Really, it is almost embarrassing what scripture promises the elect in the way of bodily delights--all that feasting!
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Post by jstwebbrowsing on Aug 26, 2013 18:24:09 GMT -6
"Behold, the days come, saith the Lord Jehovah, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of Jehovah." (Amos 8:11)
I think the knowledge of God will be part of what people feast on. I think there will also be literal feasting, however not gluttony. Look at what he created for Adam and Eve. They were in no way without plenty of food. The only reason everyone can't feast now is because of all those that disobey God, the greedy and the lazy.
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Post by questionmark on Aug 27, 2013 7:44:25 GMT -6
What do you mean the only reason everyone can feast now is because of disobedience?
Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons, through the insincerity of liars whose consciences are seared, who forbid marriage and require abstinence from foods that God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, for it is made holy by the word of God and prayer.
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Post by jstwebbrowsing on Aug 27, 2013 10:38:15 GMT -6
Oops I meant "can't" feast now.
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