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Post by questionmark on Sept 10, 2013 9:44:29 GMT -6
JST, Do you believe then that Jesus was created?
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Post by jstwebbrowsing on Sept 10, 2013 12:20:33 GMT -6
Yes, but more accurately I think he was "begotten" and that he is the only son begotten by the Father. That means he is not technically part of creation. I believe Jesus created creation. I believe Jesus uniquely shares the same divine nature of God. I just don't believe Jesus is Almighty God.
Jesus always directed honor and worship to his father and he himself worshiped the Father, prayed to his father, and always submitted to his father's will and called his father his God.
Notice in this scripture whose will Jesus said should be done. "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father who is in heaven." (Mt 7:21)
Jehovah has never been shy about saying he is God and that there is no other gods besides him. However, Jesus did not do this, saying he was God and noone should be worshiped but him and surely he would have if he were the same God whose name is Jealous. He directed all worship to his father. It is Christ that taught his followers to pray, "Our father who art in heaven hallowed be thy name". He didn't teach for us to pray to him that his own name be glorified but rather to pray to his father and glorify his name. I think that anyone that seeks to imitate Jesus should do the same.
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Post by jstwebbrowsing on Sept 10, 2013 12:30:34 GMT -6
The Father glorifies the Son. We bring glory to the son by honoring his father. By doing that we imitate the son and we become brothers. The entire glory of the son is wrapped up is his obedience to his father's will. We do not become Jehovah's brothers. We become Jesus' brothers.
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Post by questionmark on Sept 10, 2013 13:13:39 GMT -6
I find a lot of what you're saying agreeable to the Scriptures but not all of it.
First, you use the word 'god' interchangeably with 'God'. Which really becomes problematic, yet insightful.
Jesus is God, that is the divine being who made all things, the Creator. You say Jesus created Creation, yet the Bible says that the LORD created creation. Then you run into this logical problem because if the Son created all things, and the Father created all things, then the Son and the Father are one in substance.
If you permit that Jesus is the Creator, then you have said Jesus is the LORD.
At least in the flesh(and perhaps in eternity), the Son is subordinate to the Father. Within Christian orthodoxy there is charitable disagreement about whether the Son is eternally subordinate, or is only subordinate with relation to his covenant work in mankind. So that's not so important for us to establish, not to me any way. If the Bible doesn't speak directly and clearly to something then I can't require that you believe it.
I can require that you believe what the Bible says though. It says the Son created all things, and it says the Creator is the LORD.
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Post by jstwebbrowsing on Sept 10, 2013 21:48:18 GMT -6
I believe the Father created everything through his son. (John 1:10)
And I do believe he will be subordinate to his father for eternity. "Then cometh the end, when he shall deliver up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have abolished all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be abolished is death." (1 Cor 15:24-26)
And there again it is specifically saying the Father is God. It then goes on to plainly state that not everything is subject to the Son. "For, He put all things in subjection under his feet. But when he saith, All things are put in subjection, it is evident that he is excepted who did subject all things unto him. And when all things have been subjected unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subjected to him that did subject all things unto him, that God may be all in all." (1 Cor 15:27,28)
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Post by questionmark on Sept 10, 2013 22:13:15 GMT -6
JST, The Bible says that by Jesus and for Jesus and through Jesus all things were made. Jesus is the Creator. Do you believe that Jesus is the Creator? Do you believe that he is the LORD? Do you believe he is God? Because that's what the Bible says.
Jesus is not the Father, but he is God, the Son.
But to the Son He says: “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your Kingdom. You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You with the oil of gladness more than Your companions”
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Post by jstwebbrowsing on Sept 12, 2013 21:29:40 GMT -6
That does not at all address anything I've said nor the other scriptures I've posted. One scripture does not trump several others. There is another way to understand the scripture you just quoted.
To me the bottom line is this. Who did Jesus worship? Who did Jesus pray to when he went off to pray alone? Whose will did Jesus do? Does God have a God? Of course not, but Jesus did. Who has Jehovah ever prayed to? Who has Jehovah ever worshiped? Whose will has Jehovah ever been obedient to? To think that Jehovah worships someone is silly. But Jesus did worship somebody. He worshiped Jehovah. And so do I, in Jesus' name.
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Post by jstwebbrowsing on Sept 12, 2013 21:46:05 GMT -6
By claiming that Jesus is Almighty God and that you are Christ's brother then you are claiming equality with God and that you deserve worship. I am not ready to make such a claim.
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Post by questionmark on Sept 13, 2013 5:15:49 GMT -6
:)
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