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Post by jstwebbrowsing on Mar 8, 2014 11:28:36 GMT -6
“For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is possible.” -- Stuart Chase
What do you guys think of this? I think there is a lot of truth in that statement and it indicates bias on both sides of the subject of religion. One thing that does not make sense to me are the divisions of mankind along religious ideals. It just boggles my mind that definitive answers are so hard to come by. How much do you think people's opinions are determined by pure bias? Not only for the question of "does God exist", but also if he does exist, "who is God"?
I don't know how I overwrote you message. Fortunately, I quoted the whole so can put it back. my powers are just a little too powerful.~Maggie
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Post by Maggie on Mar 8, 2014 20:42:45 GMT -6
I think he is right. We all know, and scripture tells us, that faith is a gift. Without it, I do not see what could possibly bring people to God. I think rational argument can help prepare the way but I don't think argument, whether historical or logical could ever turn someone into theist.
How could it be otherwise? We all come into this world into a particular time and place. We, inevitably, inherit the cultural beliefs and prejudices of that time and place. Since I am firmly persuaded that there is only one God, infinite in power and beyond our understanding (except for what he himself has revealed), I think it is inevitable that people see him in different ways. They, like we, try to fill in the gaps with their own experiences and ideas. The result is different religion but most striving for the same thing. I don't think that other religions are 100% wrong. I think that where they differ from Christianity they are mistaken. But I also think there are going to be big surprises ahead.
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Post by jstwebbrowsing on Mar 8, 2014 23:44:36 GMT -6
Not to sound like an atheist but the question then becomes, if God exists why is there so much confusion? And I'm not talking about confusion between believer and unbeliever, but confusion between believers. Have you ever asked yourself that if you have learned the truth and others have not then what makes you so special or different? Again, I don't mean between you and a nonbeliever, but I am talking about sincere seekers of God. All earnest seekers should be brought naturally to unity as God reveals himself to them, should they not? So then where are the earnest seekers and how can they be identified?
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Post by Woodrow LI on Mar 9, 2014 0:48:13 GMT -6
Not to sound like an atheist but the question then becomes, if God exists why is there so much confusion? And I'm not talking about confusion between believer and unbeliever, but confusion between believers. Have you ever asked yourself that if you have learned the truth and others have not then what makes you so special or different? Again, I don't mean between you and a nonbeliever, but I am talking about sincere seekers of God. All earnest seekers should be brought naturally to unity as God reveals himself to them, should they not? So then where are the earnest seekers and how can they be identified? There is so much confusion because us people creatures can not tolerate simple answers. We just can not accept the fact that an almighty all knowing God(swt) would do anything in such a simple manner a child can understand it. I believe preschool children have a much better understanding of God(swt) than the greatest and wisest theologians who ever lived. The more we "mature" the more we throw away our ability to understand God(swt) We want our God(swt) to be so complex that not even a genius can understand him. Yet, we are so arrogant and dumb we even forget it is not our God(swt). |
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Post by Maggie on Mar 9, 2014 11:56:01 GMT -6
Interestingly, those with the least sophisticated understanding of God tend to be atheists who describe him as a "superman". They really cannot imagine him as wholly other. It is only those who wrestle with their faith that develop a more mature faith.
There really aren't thousands of religions. One theologian I know puts it as a few dozen and I see his point. We as much as Protestants object to the various denoms that formed after the restoration. But in fact, what makes a different religion a different religion? It certainly can't be whether or not we practice infant baptism or use musical instruments in worship (or not use them). The vast majority of us hold to the Nicene creed which is enough to make us the same religion, but with its own distinctive emphasis. When you factor out the Protestant denoms, there isn't much left.
It is believers who cause confusion. There will not be perfect unity until Christ comes again. I am not sure that Christ ever expected people with different cultures and languages to put them all aside to become a monolith. Our unity is in Him. Not in walking in lockstep with one another.
As far as the earnest seekers are concerned, it isn't up to us to pigeon hole them. They belong to God and they will stand, no matter how weak they might be now, because he is able to make them stand. It is not our place to judge. That belongs to God. Our place is to love which is hard enough.
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Post by jstwebbrowsing on Mar 9, 2014 13:25:46 GMT -6
Not to sound like an atheist but the question then becomes, if God exists why is there so much confusion? And I'm not talking about confusion between believer and unbeliever, but confusion between believers. Have you ever asked yourself that if you have learned the truth and others have not then what makes you so special or different? Again, I don't mean between you and a nonbeliever, but I am talking about sincere seekers of God. All earnest seekers should be brought naturally to unity as God reveals himself to them, should they not? So then where are the earnest seekers and how can they be identified? There is so much confusion because us people creatures can not tolerate simple answers. We just can not accept the fact that an almighty all knowing God(swt) would do anything in such a simple manner a child can understand it. I believe preschool children have a much better understanding of God(swt) than the greatest and wisest theologians who ever lived. The more we "mature" the more we throw away our ability to understand God(swt) We want our God(swt) to be so complex that not even a genius can understand him. Yet, we are so arrogant and dumb we even forget it is not our God(swt). Then who can be saved? |
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Post by jstwebbrowsing on Mar 9, 2014 13:38:16 GMT -6
Interestingly, those with the least sophisticated understanding of God tend to be atheists who describe him as a "superman". They really cannot imagine him as wholly other. It is only those who wrestle with their faith that develop a more mature faith. There really aren't thousands of religions. One theologian I know puts it as a few dozen and I see his point. We as much as Protestants object to the various denoms that formed after the restoration. But in fact, what makes a different religion a different religion? It certainly can't be whether or not we practice infant baptism or use musical instruments in worship (or not use them). The vast majority of us hold to the Nicene creed which is enough to make us the same religion, but with its own distinctive emphasis. When you factor out the Protestant denoms, there isn't much left. It is believers who cause confusion. There will not be perfect unity until Christ comes again. I am not sure that Christ ever expected people with different cultures and languages to put them all aside to become a monolith. Our unity is in Him. Not in walking in lockstep with one another. As far as the earnest seekers are concerned, it isn't up to us to pigeon hole them. They belong to God and they will stand, no matter how weak they might be now, because he is able to make them stand. It is not our place to judge. That belongs to God. Our place is to love which is hard enough. One thing refrains me from taking that view and that's the Bible's words on secterianism to early Christians. It was a very serious matter. But how can it possibly be avoided? And my point is not to judge earnest seekers but to learn from them. But how can they be identified? Revelation says that Satan would mislead even the "elect" if that were possible. So what hope does anyone else have? And why must one adhere to the Nicene Creed? |
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Post by jstwebbrowsing on Mar 9, 2014 13:43:08 GMT -6
Here is a blunt question for you both. What makes you think your worship is acceptable to God?
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Post by Maggie on Mar 9, 2014 14:58:37 GMT -6
Unless you can read hearts, I don't think you can identify believers with certainty. Of course, those wonderful people who love and obey quite perfectly are easy to pick out. But most of us don't manage that. James 1:27 says: Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.
Christianity has always been an activist sort of religion. It goes through periods of ascetcism but activism is the norm. According to Rodney Stark who approached Christianity as a sociologist (In his book The Rise of Christianity) the killer difference which everyone could see was the love the Christians had for each other and their pagan neighbors. The Emperor Julian(b. 333) hated Christianity and wanted to restore paganism as the religion of the empire. His Christian relatives were a bad lot and so it isn't hard to see the problem. In any case he was incensed by the continuing success of Christianity and wrote an unintentionally hilarious letter to one of the pagan priests in which he claimed that the Christians were faking, that when the nursed the sick it was all for show, when they fed the hungry, likewise. So if the pagans were to regain power, they would have to do better. Well the pagans couldn't! If I can find the letter easily, I will link you to it. In any case it seems clear that Christians can be identified by what they do as well as what they profess.
Revelation says that Satan would mislead even the "elect" if that were possible. So what hope does anyone else have?
if that were possible. It is not possible. One can walk away but not unknowingly. As long as you seek God's friendship, you have it. "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."
What makes me think my worship is acceptable to God? In one way it can never be good enough. That reality keeps me striving. But James has told us what is acceptable to God. We have not been left alone to figure it out for ourselves.
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Post by Maggie on Mar 9, 2014 15:17:30 GMT -6
I wrote this over at the mother ship a few years ago. In 165 a disease that historians believe was smallpox appeared and over the next 15 years ravaged the empire. Marcus Aurelius died from it and it is estimated that as much as 1/3 of the empire perished. As if that weren't bad enough, another devastating epidemic appeared in 251, possibly measles. Whatever it was, there were reports that 5000 people a day perished in Rome alone. I can't do justice to his sociological arguments for all the ways that this helped Christianity spread but, significantly, its ethos, caring for the poor, the homeless, et al. was critical, even though it killed many Christians who were in constant contact with the sick. Paganism had nothing to offer. Its gods cared nothing for humans. It's priests fled to the countryside to escape illness.
The emperor Julian who hated Christianity and tried to restore paganism as the state religion wrote bitterly about the "galileans" whose pretended benevolence was winning converts everywhere. In one of his letters he wrote that not only did the "impious Galileans" support their own poor but "ours as well. Everyone can see that our people lack aid from us".(quoted in Stark, p. 84). I have said it before and I will say it again. You atheists are spending the capital of Christianity. The pre-Christian world was a cruel, miserable place with masses of very poor and a very few wealthy elite. When that capital is gone, power will step into the vacuum. Not some kum bah yah morality that so many of you seem to think is natural to humans. The letter itself can be read here. It contains Julian's plans to out Christian the Christians! |
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Post by Woodrow LI on Mar 9, 2014 19:26:41 GMT -6
Here is a blunt question for you both. What makes you think your worship is acceptable to God? Can only speak for myself. Simply because I am convinced that the way to worship God(swt) is to submit fully to him and make all my thoughts words and deeds a worship of him. It is a very personal relationship that is between God(swt) and myself . The physical, visible aspects of Islam such as following the 5 Pillars of faith are just that, the physical, visible aspects, which is a very small part of worship. My worship is the full surrender of my life to submit to the best of my ability. In Islam there is no separation between how one lives and Worship; the same word is used for both De'en, De'en is both my worship and how I live. Can I prove, my worship is acceptable to Allaah(swt), only to those who are certain the Qur'an is the actual word of Allaah(swt) |
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Post by Maggie on Mar 9, 2014 20:54:05 GMT -6
I think that is a very profound point and one which is also perfectly compatible with Christianity. Our worship is not confined to one day of the week. We are to follow Him 24/7.
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Post by jstwebbrowsing on Mar 9, 2014 22:14:25 GMT -6
As far as I can tell there are earnest seekers all over the place but they are not united. Why?
Maggie calls him Jesus, Woodrow calls him Allah, and I call him Jehovah and we all believe he has different requirements for worship. Are at least two out of us three not earnest seekers? Has God only revealed the truth to no more than one of us? If he has only spoken to one of us and not the others then why? If he has spoken to all of us then why do we view him in incompatible ways? As an example, Maggie says the Nicene Creed must be observed. I say the trinity is of pagan origin, and Woodrow you don't believe in the sacrifice of Christ, which Maggie and I both agree upon. Why? If one or more of us is doing something wrong then what is it?
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Post by Woodrow LI on Mar 10, 2014 0:26:50 GMT -6
None of us has to prove our worship to anyone. We need not be concerned if our neighbor is in error. the only concern we need have is if we KNOW we are worshiping the only God(swt) that exists.
No matter how much we think our neighbor is in error, we can not know what is in his heart. God(swt) probably has little concern at how well he goes through the physical aspects of worship, nor if he has dogma and beliefs down perfect.
I believe God(swt) will look into my neighbors heart and intentions and judge on that, not upon what I see as error. It is very probable that there will be people, I believe have failed, who will reach Heaven.
I do not know who will reach heaven, my concern is to be certain I am following the path that will get me there.
If I have advice to give to others, it is simple:
Be certain your choice is of your own free will and you make informed choices based upon what you have verified to be true.
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Post by jstwebbrowsing on Mar 10, 2014 10:23:57 GMT -6
Verifying what is true is what concerns me. How can anyone know what is true? If what I believe is true then why don't you believe similar to me? If what you believe is true why don't I believe similar to you? It seems very presumptuous to say "I'm right and you're wrong" so I always question my own beliefs. I can understand slight variances, but let's face it, we all three worship different Gods. It's supposed to be the same God, but it's not although they do have some similar moral quaities.
Maggie worships a trinity, I worship Jehovah, and you worship Allah. Is that acceptable to God, do you think?
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Post by Maggie on Mar 10, 2014 11:00:08 GMT -6
There is only one God. I don't think like you because I am not you. We understand what God expects of us more or less well, depending on a whole boatload of variables-- like the historical period into which we were born. Would you be a JW if you had been born in 9th century China? Other variables include family environment. The child of an abusive father is not going to find our emphasis on the fatherhood of God very congenial. Some of it may be intelligence or lack thereof. But God reveals himself to most people. Like Paul says, even the heathens know something about him from nature itself. Instead of examining your neighbor, why not concern yourself with yourself? You might have 50 neighbors walking in lockstep all saying the same thing. And all of them are wrong. They will lead you astray if you follow after them in order to be in "perfect Unity" with them.
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Post by jstwebbrowsing on Mar 10, 2014 11:36:57 GMT -6
I am concerned about mylself and what I tell others. What if I am wrong? I am no better than anyone else. There is certainly nothing special about me that God should reveal something to me that he does not reveal to anyone else. But at the same time, anyone else is not better than I. Sure, some are more intelligence but we're just talking about a fundamental question. Who is God. And there are some very intelligent people that are atheists. If a supreme intelligence is required then I'm not even in the running.
Bu the only bonified fact is that we can't all be right. We could all be wrong but we can't all be right. If I am not mistaken, we three pretty much believe the other two are lost if we don't change our ways. According to Catholics Woodrow and I are both lost because we don't recognize the godship of Christ. Woodrow and I think the Catholics are lost because they worship someone other than God himself. I think Muslims are lost because they don't recognize the resurrection of the Christ. Not sure what Muslims think of non trinitarian Christians.
Now I am not talking about perfect unity here. I'm talking about the fundamental question of who or what is God. If I accept that fact that others can be wrong then I must also accept the fact that I can be wrong, but then what?
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Post by Woodrow LI on Mar 10, 2014 12:07:07 GMT -6
Verifying what is true is what concerns me. How can anyone know what is true? If what I believe is true then why don't you believe similar to me? If what you believe is true why don't I believe similar to you? It seems very presumptuous to say "I'm right and you're wrong" so I always question my own beliefs. I can understand slight variances, but let's face it, we all three worship different Gods. It's supposed to be the same God, but it's not although they do have some similar moral quaities. Maggie worships a trinity, I worship Jehovah, and you worship Allah. Is that acceptable to God, do you think? I doubt if we are worshiping 3 different Gods(swt) as there is only one. Of course we each believe we are worshiping correctly and the other 2 are wrong. Allaah(swt) is the Arabic Pronunciation of the Hebrew letters alif-Lamad-He, The Aramaic speakers pronounce them as Eli or Ali but when spoken by an Aramaic speaker sounds like Al-ah. The Hebrew pronunciation is Elohim, when pronounced ay a Jew sounds like Al- ah-heem. A name that is also acceptable to most Christians. Although the three languages pronounce the name slightly different, all 3 write it the same. Allaah(swt) is quite complex to translate into English. The short translation is "The One God, who has no Equals, partners or progeny. There are no others like Him. He is one and above all creation and worthy of all praise and Glory" I think the important thing is not to worry about how the others worship. We each need to be certain that we our self is worshiping correctly to the best of our ability. I also believe that God(swt) will lead those who are sincere in their desire to worship. The path may take unexpected turns but it is up to us to let God(swt) lead, we pray for guidance. Now it is possible we each are just taking the first step leading to the Path, but that is no matter, the main thing is we are willing to let God(swt) do the leading. We can easily fall off the path we are on if we get too concerned at showing our neighbor He is wrong. |
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Post by jstwebbrowsing on Mar 10, 2014 13:00:45 GMT -6
This is all good advice I think. Sometimes I am argumentative. That seems to run in my family. But there is more beyond that. Maybe my motives are wrong. Above even my own salvation, I want to know the truth. Don't get me wrong, I want to be saved, but even if I'm not I want to have known the truth. But how do you know the truth if you find it? It's not that I want to prove others wrong, but it's like my dad used to tell me as a teenager. "You can't be right while all these other people are wrong". And I just can't escape that feeling. And no matter what religion I choose the problem would remain. My only doubts are other people's opinions. I just cannot accept that I could be correct while so many others would not be.
It would be easier for me to understand if God himself did not play a part. So what are the possibilities?
1. God has revealed to me that he is Jehovah, to Woodrow that he is Allah, and to Maggie that he is a trinity?
Why?
2. God has revealed himself to one of us but not the others.
Why?
3. God has revealed himself to neither of us.
Why?
4. We distort what God reveals to us.
This seems most likely. So how can this be prevented? How can I know if I distort what God reveals to me?
Are there any other options?
This huge disunity is what I don't understand. In the meantime, we each must do what we think best and hope God has mercy on us all but is that enough?
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Post by Woodrow LI on Mar 10, 2014 13:12:36 GMT -6
Verifying what is true is what concerns me. How can anyone know what is true? If what I believe is true then why don't you believe similar to me? If what you believe is true why don't I believe similar to you? It seems very presumptuous to say "I'm right and you're wrong" so I always question my own beliefs. I can understand slight variances, but let's face it, we all three worship different Gods. It's supposed to be the same God, but it's not although they do have some similar moral quaities. Maggie worships a trinity, I worship Jehovah, and you worship Allah. Is that acceptable to God, do you think? I doubt if we are worshiping 3 different Gods(swt) as there is only one. Of course we each believe we are worshiping correctly and the other 2 are wrong. Allaah(swt) is the Arabic Pronunciation of the Hebrew letters alif-Lamad-He, The Aramaic speakers pronounce them as Eli or Ali but when spoken by an Aramaic speaker sounds like Al-ah. The Hebrew pronunciation is Elohim, when pronounced ay a Jew sounds like Al- ah-heem. A name that is also acceptable to most Christians. Although the three languages pronounce the name slightly different, all 3 write it the same. Allaah(swt) is quite complex to translate into English. The short translation is "The One God, who has no Equals, partners or progeny. There are no others like Him. He is one and above all creation and worthy of all praise and Glory" I think the important thing is not to worry about how the others worship. We each need to be certain that we our self is worshiping correctly to the best of our ability. I also believe that God(swt) will lead those who are sincere in their desire to worship. The path may take unexpected turns but it is up to us to let God(swt) lead, we pray for guidance. Now it is possible we each are just taking the first step leading to the Path, but that is no matter, the main thing is we are willing to let God(swt) do the leading. We can easily fall off the path we are on if we get too concerned at showing our neighbor He is wrong. |
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