|
Post by Maggie on Dec 13, 2013 17:15:47 GMT -6
I noticed the Nabilbb asked over at IGI about the who or what the Holy Spirit is. I am so surprised that no one has given him a straight answer. So I will here.
The Holy Spirit is God. He is the third Person of the Trinity. As the Nicene Creed says, "I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son, who with the Father and the Son is adored and glorified ... "
The Holy Spirit is God in the world; always with us, always guiding and sustaining us. There is nothing easy about the concept of the Trinity so I don't how much more we can say. In case you are interested, here is the whole Nicene creed which most of Christendom professes:
I believe in one God, the Father almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all things visible and invisible.
I believe in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Only Begotten Son of God, born of the Father before all ages. God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father; through him all things were made. For us men and for our salvation he came down from heaven, and by the Holy Spirit was incarnate of the Virgin Mary, and became man. For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate, he suffered death and was buried, and rose again on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures. He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead and his kingdom will have no end.
I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son, who with the Father and the Son is adored and glorified, who has spoken through the prophets.
I believe in one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church. I confess one Baptism for the forgiveness of sins and I look forward to the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come. Amen.
|
|
|
Post by nabilbb on Dec 16, 2013 11:32:03 GMT -6
Thanks Maggie, I understand if you tell me the holy spirit is the blessing of God that is always with us. but as your description of it as being a 3rd person of God, is very confusing to me. if it is a person, it must be tangible, if it was a person again We go back to the confusing of God being 3 in one. Why god needs to be a person/human? Why God needs to be a spirit? Why God needs to do humanly things? many question that really confuses me and I am sure many people including Christians. and if it is confusing enough, Why our salvation is dependent on something that is difficult to understand? (please forgive me, I am just thinking loud)
|
|
|
Post by Maggie on Dec 16, 2013 13:15:43 GMT -6
Those are good questions but I am not sure I can answer all of them. I can try to give you some reasonable answers to some of them.
The Holy Spirit is God, the third Person of the Trinity. I think it was St. Augustine (late 4th century) who wrote that if you talk about the Trinity for more than 5 minutes you will fall into heresy. What he meant is that it is a murderously difficult concept and very easy to get wrong. How could it be otherwise when we are talking about the very nature of God? The best explanation of it that I have ever read was written by a man named Frank Sheed. I have described it before on another forum so I will quote myself:
The best popular explanation I know was written by Frank Sheed in Theology and Sanity decades ago and it is none too easy. You can read the relevant excerpt from it at Insight Scoop It is subsection iii. Here are some bits of it. His words are italicized mine (attempts to clarify or summarize) are not:
In the one divine Nature, there are three Persons - the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
The Father is not the Son, the Son is not the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit is not the Father: no one of the Persons is either of the others.
The Father is God, the Son is God, the Holy Spirit is God.
There are not three Gods but one God.
The way to try to understand this is to understand the difference between "nature" and "person". Nature, roughly speaking, is the source of what we can do. Person expresses who can do those things. In humans there is a one to one correspondence between nature and person. Not so in God.
We are not saying three persons in one person, or three natures in one nature; we are saying three persons in one nature. There is not even the appearance of an arithmetical problem. It is for us to see what person is and what nature is, and then to consider what meaning there can be in a nature totally possessed by three distinct persons. ...
Nature answers the question what we are; person answers the question who we are. Every being has a nature; of every being we may properly ask, What is it? But not every being is a person: only rational beings are persons. We could not properly ask of a stone or a potato or an oyster, Who is it?
Summarizing thus far, we may state the doctrine in this way: the Father possesses the whole nature of God as His Own, the Son possesses the whole nature of God as His Own, the Holy Spirit possesses the whole nature of God as His Own. Thus, since the nature of any being decides what the being is, each person is God, wholly and therefore equally with the others. Further, the nature decides what the person can do: therefore, each of the three persons who thus totally possess the Divine Nature can do all the things that go with being God...
But although my nature is the source of all my actions, although my nature decides what kind of operations are possible for me, it is not my nature that does them: I do them, I the person. Thus both person and nature may be considered sources of action, but in a different sense. The person is that which does the actions, the nature is that by virtue of which the actions are done, or, better, that from which the actions are drawn.
... if each of the three persons is wholly God, why not three Gods? The reason why we cannot say three Gods becomes clear if we consider what is meant by the parallel phrase, "three men". That would mean three distinct persons, each possessing a human nature. But note that, although their natures would be similar, each would have his own. The first man could not think with the second man's intellect, but only with his own; the second man could not love with the third's will, but only with his own. The phrase "three men" would mean three distinct persons, each with his own separate human nature, his own separate equipment as man; the phrase "three gods" would mean three distinct persons, each with his own separate Divine Nature, his own separate equipment as God. But in the Blessed Trinity, that is not so. The three Persons are God, not by the possession of equal and similar natures, but by the possession of one single nature; they do in fact, what our three men could not do, know with the same intellect and love with the same will. They are three Persons, but they are not three Gods; they are One God.
Keep in mind that this is the easy explanation!
Many mystics approached the issue differently. The Trinity has existed from all eternity. There was never a time when God the Son and God the Holy Spirit did not exist. But because God is love, and because love must have an object, the mystics would describe God the Father as the Lover, God the Son as the Beloved, and the Holy Spirit as the love that is generated by them. This love is poured out and returned unceasingly and has been from all eternity.
I find that easier to grasp.
I will try to answer some of the other questions you asked later.
|
|
|
Post by jstwebbrowsing on Mar 30, 2014 15:26:22 GMT -6
Thanks Maggie, I understand if you tell me the holy spirit is the blessing of God that is always with us. but as your description of it as being a 3rd person of God, is very confusing to me. if it is a person, it must be tangible, if it was a person again We go back to the confusing of God being 3 in one. Why god needs to be a person/human? Why God needs to be a spirit? Why God needs to do humanly things? many question that really confuses me and I am sure many people including Christians. and if it is confusing enough, Why our salvation is dependent on something that is difficult to understand? (please forgive me, I am just thinking loud) Not all Christians are trinitarians. Spirit means breath. According to my beliefs holy spirit is not a person nor a God, but is God's active force. It is an inseperable part of God but is not a person nor is it intelligent. It is God's active force. It exists because he exists. He does not exist because it exists.
|
|
|
Post by Woodrow LI on Mar 31, 2014 15:23:38 GMT -6
Thanks Maggie, I understand if you tell me the holy spirit is the blessing of God that is always with us. but as your description of it as being a 3rd person of God, is very confusing to me. if it is a person, it must be tangible, if it was a person again We go back to the confusing of God being 3 in one. Why god needs to be a person/human? Why God needs to be a spirit? Why God needs to do humanly things? many question that really confuses me and I am sure many people including Christians. and if it is confusing enough, Why our salvation is dependent on something that is difficult to understand? (please forgive me, I am just thinking loud) Not all Christians are trinitarians. Spirit means breath. According to my beliefs holy spirit is not a person nor a God, but is God's active force. It is an inseperable part of God but is not a person nor is it intelligent. It is God's active force. It exists because he exists. He does not exist because it exists. That is not much different from the Islamic belief. We belief the Holy Spirit is an Angel. But, to understand why I say your belief is similar to ours you need to know what our concept of an Angel is. They are eternal beings created to do only God(swt)'s Bidding. They do not have free will and can not say or do Except what God(swt) does through them. The Angel Jabreel (Gabrial) is primarily a messenger to carry God(swt)'s word to humans. He speaks exactly what God(swt) has said to him. His words are exactly what God(swt) has said. An analogy would be to think of him as a perfect MP3 player. Except he is a living being with no sin and perfectly obedient. We believe the being called "Holy Spirit" by Christians is the Angel Gabriel
|
|
|
Post by jstwebbrowsing on Mar 31, 2014 21:34:28 GMT -6
I agree that angel = messenger.
What about Satan and his angels?
Do you believe there are any free willed spirit creatures?
Do you believe God used Gabriel to fashion the earth and create humans? I ask this in reference to Genesis and it's reference to holy spirit.
|
|
|
Post by nabilbb on Apr 1, 2014 9:48:09 GMT -6
I always wondered if the Holly spirit in Islam is the angel Gabriel or it is just the unseen blessing from God!!
if it is the angel, Does it apply to all angels or only Gabriel? Angels are not spirits, they are physical entities!
|
|
|
Post by Woodrow LI on Apr 1, 2014 10:13:06 GMT -6
I agree that angel = messenger. What about Satan and his angels? Do you believe there are any free willed spirit creatures? Do you believe God used Gabriel to fashion the earth and create humans? I ask this in reference to Genesis and it's reference to holy spirit. We believe there are 3 Life forms created to serve and Worship God(swt), Angels, Djinn and Humans. (There may be more, but those are all we have been told about) The Djinn are somewhat similar to Angels but have free will. A Shaytan is any being capable of freely choosing to rebel against God(swt) it can be either a Human or a Djinn. As Iblis rebelled we believe he was a Djinn that chose to be A shaytan. An Angel can not be a Shaytan as they do not have free will. Iblis is often just simply called Shaytan as he is the best known Shaytan. The Earth is populated by both Humans and Djinn some of both are Shaytans. There usually is no contact between Djinn and Humans. For the most part the Shaytan we need to fear on Earth are Humans that choose to be Shaytan. The Djinn like Humans can be good or evil. Those that choose to be Shaytan will try to inter act with Humans and lead them to evil. The djinn are capable of assuming any physical shape they desire to and can even posses humans. But typically they act by planting evil thoughts into the minds of humans. We call that waswas (the Whisperings of Shaytan)
|
|
|
Post by jstwebbrowsing on Apr 1, 2014 12:30:25 GMT -6
Why do you believe angels don't have free will? Because technically humans can be angels insofar as they are messengers of God, yet they have free will.
|
|
|
Post by Woodrow LI on Apr 1, 2014 12:59:21 GMT -6
Why do you believe angels don't have free will? Because technically humans can be angels insofar as they are messengers of God, yet they have free will. We are not perfect. And as a result are capable of going against God(swt) The Angels because they are perfect can only do exactly as God(swt) commands with no deviation. While Human Prophets can be Messengers, they are also simply repeating what God(swt) has directly commanded them to or Through the Angel Gabriel (Holy Spirit)
|
|
|
Post by jstwebbrowsing on Apr 1, 2014 13:47:14 GMT -6
Why do you believe angels don't have free will? Because technically humans can be angels insofar as they are messengers of God, yet they have free will. We are not perfect. And as a result are capable of going against God(swt) The Angels because they are perfect can only do exactly as God(swt) commands with no deviation. While Human Prophets can be Messengers, they are also simply repeating what God(swt) has directly commanded them to or Through the Angel Gabriel (Holy Spirit) Firstly what I don't know about angels would fill volumes, but I am always curious to try to figure these things out. Is there a specific passage in the Koran that says this or is this believed for different reasons? Because I don't see how being created to perfectly fill a purpose negates free will. Even animals have free will to a degree. Are angels just a force or are they beings of some sort?
|
|
|
Post by Woodrow LI on Apr 1, 2014 15:06:20 GMT -6
We are not perfect. And as a result are capable of going against God(swt) The Angels because they are perfect can only do exactly as God(swt) commands with no deviation. While Human Prophets can be Messengers, they are also simply repeating what God(swt) has directly commanded them to or Through the Angel Gabriel (Holy Spirit) Firstly what I don't know about angels would fill volumes, but I am always curious to try to figure these things out. Is there a specific passage in the Koran that says this or is this believed for different reasons? Because I don't see how being created to perfectly fill a purpose negates free will. Even animals have free will to a degree. Are angels just a force or are they beings of some sort? It is true animals have limited free will, but they can not sin. Nothing has been forbidden to the animals. Animals do not have full free will as nothing is sinful for them. there are no sins applicable to animals. The Angels are created immortal beings. They will never die. Perfect obedience negates free will as by being perfect there is no desire to disobey and never will be. While there are 103 ayyats speaking of Angels in the Qur'an. there is no mention of them having or not having free will. It is assumed they do not as there is no reference of them ever disobeying. It is also noted that they were created immortal and are in Heaven. If a being is created eternal, it can not die. This basically means the Angels can not sin and be cast out of heaven, since they can not die, they must not have free will. Angels will never face the possibility of Death as they are sinless and can not sin. Unlike men and Djinn; Angels will never face a physical death and resurrection. there is no need free them to have free will.
|
|
|
Post by Maggie on Apr 1, 2014 18:57:19 GMT -6
That is a very different understanding than we Christians have! First of all, angels are created beings. We know they have free will because Lucifer rebelled against God and other angels joined him in his rebellion. When he was defeated he was thrown into hell- a place that must be different from the final hell that is described as being prepared for Satan and his angels at the end of time. Finally, we are told in the New Testament that the saved, that is saved humans, will judge the angels. I am sorry that I am in a bit too much of a hurry to look for the places where this is stated but I will do so, if anyone wishes, later.
|
|
|
Post by Woodrow LI on Apr 1, 2014 22:31:52 GMT -6
That is a very different understanding than we Christians have! First of all, angels are created beings. We know they have free will because Lucifer rebelled against God and other angels joined him in his rebellion. When he was defeated he was thrown into hell- a place that must be different from the final hell that is described as being prepared for Satan and his angels at the end of time. Finally, we are told in the New Testament that the saved, that is saved humans, will judge the angels. I am sorry that I am in a bit too much of a hurry to look for the places where this is stated but I will do so, if anyone wishes, later. Here we have no mutually accepted source of proof. Quite simply the Bible says one thing the Qur'an says something different. All we can do is stick our tongues out at each other and say my book can beat up your book. I suggest in this matter we simply acknowledge we disagree.We have no mutually accepted reference to use as proof.
|
|
|
Post by Maggie on Apr 2, 2014 6:35:14 GMT -6
I didn't know we were discussing it. I thought we were describing the understanding of each religion. I can't imagine getting into any kind of debate about angels since we (Christians) have relatively little information on the subject.
|
|
|
Post by Woodrow LI on Apr 2, 2014 9:02:43 GMT -6
I didn't know we were discussing it. I thought we were describing the understanding of each religion. I can't imagine getting into any kind of debate about angels since we (Christians) have relatively information on the subject. LOL My misunderstanding. I apologize. I spend too much time on Forums that are war zones
|
|
|
Post by jstwebbrowsing on Apr 4, 2014 14:10:16 GMT -6
I am not trying to debate. And I know what the Bible says about them. I was just comparing Islam's belief.
I do have a question for you Maggie. You said Satan was cast into hell. Why do you say that? And how do you relate that to this scripture. "And the great dragon was cast down, the old serpent, he that is called the Devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world; he was cast down to the earth, and his angels were cast down with him" (Rev 12:9)
|
|
|
Post by Maggie on Apr 4, 2014 18:21:14 GMT -6
I don't say anything to that. Revelation is vision literature. It is not a literal description of anything. If you are going to build a theology around a single verse, then what do you make of this?
Then he [Jesus] will say to those at his left hand, ‘You that are accursed, depart from me into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels ... (Matthew 25:40-42)
|
|
|
Post by jstwebbrowsing on Apr 4, 2014 23:31:20 GMT -6
You did say that. You said, "When he was defeated he was thrown into hell- a place that must be different from the final hell that is described as being prepared for Satan and his angels at the end of time." Then he [Jesus] will say to those at his left hand, ‘You that are accursed, depart from me into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels ... (Matthew 25:40-42) This is in reference to the Lake of Fire in Revelation, the place that hell and death are cast. that must be different from the final hell Let me explain this and please consider it before summarily dismissing it. In the KJV there are different words tranlated "hell". These words are Sheol/Hades/Gehenna. "She'ol (/ˈʃiːoʊl/ SHEE-ohl or /ˈʃiːəl/ SHEE-əl; Hebrew שְׁאוֹל Šʾôl), translated as "grave", "pit", or "abode of the dead", is the underworld of the Old Testament/Hebrew Bible. It is a place of darkness to which all the dead go, both the righteous and the unrighteous, regardless of the moral choices made in life, a place of stillness and darkness cut off from God.[1]" en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SheolHades is the corresponding Greek word for the same thing. Notice that it should be translated as grave, pit, or abode of the dead. It is always linked with death and inactivity. This is where people go to sleep in death. You might say this is where their soul rests. That leaves Gehenna. A reference to the valley of Hinnom, the place the Jews kept continually burning as a garbage dump and where they burned dead criminals. It has some other colorful history such as those that practed false religion burned their sons and their daughters "in the fire". A thing detestable to God. Whenever the Bible makes reference to burning or everlasting punishment it is always in reference to Gehanna. No fire or punishment is ever associated with Sheol or Hades. Job even prayed to go there, "O that in Sheol Thou wouldest conceal me, Hide me till the turning of Thine anger, Set for me a limit, and remember me." (Job 14:13). Job was not asking to burn in fire, he was asking to die. The other reference in the Bible to everlasting fire is the Lake of Fire in Revelation. The Lake of fire and Gehenna are one and the same, and is the same fire reference it your above question to me. Think about this scripture, "Woe to you, Scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye go round the sea and the dry land to make one proselyte, and whenever it may happen -- ye make him a son of gehenna twofold more than yourselves." (Mt 23:15 YLT) Keeping in mind that this it was a place where the Jews burned dead criminals, what did this mean to his listeners? It meant the religious leaders would make them criminals (law breakers) and they'd end up in Gehenna, and they'd be dead and gone. But Gehenna did come to take on a deeper meaning, namely that it is eternal and it was associatated with everlasting punishment. Here is another reference to Gehenna. "And be not afraid of those killing the body, and are not able to kill the soul, but fear rather Him who is able both soul and body to destroy in gehenna." (Mt 10:28 YLT) Here Jesus associates gehenna with destruction of soul and body. That means no resting soul. Does that mean it is an eternal place of fire and brimstone and people are tortured for all eternity? No. Those that were put in (sentenced to) Gehenna by the Jews were destroyed. That was the punishment. They were dead and gone. So what makes Gehenna different from Hades/Sheol? Firstly, Gehenna is eternal. Sheol is not. Secondly those that are put in Gehenna are put there as punishment. Those in Hades are not. All those in Hades will be resurrected. "Marvel not at this: for the hour cometh, in which all that are in the tombs shall hear his voice" (Jn 5:28) That is why Revelations says "And the sea gave up the dead that were in it; and death and Hades (Hell KJV) gave up the dead that were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works." Hades will be emptied of all it dead. Those that are in Gehenna are not in Hades. There is no resurrection for them, they are serving their punishment and will do so for all eternity. The fire is a symbol of complete destruction, both body and soul. That is why the Lake of fire is also called second death. Now keeping this in mind, what does this mean? "And death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death, even the lake of fire." (Rev 20:14) It means Hades will be destroyed, that is there will be no more graves. Death being cast into it means death will be destroyed in fulfillment of scripture, "The last enemy to be destroyed is death." (1 Cor 15:26) This is where Satan, his angels, the false prophet, the beast, and all of Satan's follows are cast. All of them are forever destroyed. There is no need to keep them around and burn them just like there is no reason to burn death and Hades. They are simply gone, never again will they pollute any part of God's creation. Although the memory of them will never be forgotten, not among us and not among the angels. I know you're probably already thinking of some contradictory sounding scriptures such as the story of Lazarus, but these can be explained if you are willing to hear and consider. Please don't just reject what I've said. Do the research yourself and see if I'm telling the truth about what I've said so far.
|
|
|
Post by Maggie on Apr 5, 2014 9:20:59 GMT -6
I haven't had time to do more than skim your message but I will say this. You misunderstood my first sentence so the rest of your response isn't quite on topic. Still, it is interesting and I will read and respond when I have the chance. Keep in mind, though that we have a 2000 year history of engagement with the scriptures. We selected the books that would go into the Bible and have preserved them for the last 1700 years. We are the ones with the scholarly expertise to read them in the original language(s). We don't have to read them in translation and we do read them with a deep understanding of the culture that produced them. I am afraid all you johnny-come- latelys don't stand a real chance.
|
|