|
Incest
Dec 2, 2013 10:46:58 GMT -6
Post by nabilbb on Dec 2, 2013 10:46:58 GMT -6
In Islam, Incest is not allowed, but what is the real definition of Incest? We can marry cousins, is that considered to be an Incest?
What is the ruling of Incest in other religions like Christianity?
|
|
|
Incest
Dec 3, 2013 15:14:27 GMT -6
Post by Woodrow LI on Dec 3, 2013 15:14:27 GMT -6
In Islam, Incest is not allowed, but what is the real definition of Incest? We can marry cousins, is that considered to be an Incest?
What is the ruling of Incest in other religions like Christianity?
It is a religious and/or legal term. A simple definition is "any sexual relations between people that are too closely related to marry". In most Religions and legal systems that will be a person closer than a first Cousin. I believe only Christianity forbids marriage between First cousins. In most US states it is legal to marry a First cousin. However Most if not all Christian denominations forbid it. President Franklin Roosevelt and his wife Eleanor were cousins, But they may have been second cousins. Both had the same family name of Roosevelt and Theodore Roosevelt was the uncle of Both. Here is a list of famous people that married cousins LINK
|
|
|
Incest
Dec 3, 2013 15:42:09 GMT -6
Post by nabilbb on Dec 3, 2013 15:42:09 GMT -6
any ideas why god allowed incest during the time of Adam? I know it is for Generations of man kind to continue, but any other ideas?
|
|
|
Incest
Dec 3, 2013 17:30:43 GMT -6
Post by Woodrow LI on Dec 3, 2013 17:30:43 GMT -6
any ideas why god allowed incest during the time of Adam? I know it is for Generations of man kind to continue, but any other ideas? The simplest explanation is because He had not forbidden it. Often times we try too hard to find reason for what Allaah(swt) Permits or forbids. We have no reason to know. we only need know what has been forbidden and avoid doing it. There is no need to make life difficult.
|
|
|
Incest
Dec 4, 2013 7:53:38 GMT -6
Post by Maggie on Dec 4, 2013 7:53:38 GMT -6
Well, I think that is true but I also can think of some other possibilities. We may not have been given enough information to understand the kinship being described in the books of the Old Testament. I have Abram and Sarai in mind. How were they related? We know that she is his half sister but who are the parents involved? If Abraham's father was father to both, but they had different mothers, they were still too close to marry. But if Abraham's father's wife had a child from a previous marriage the marriage would not be, presumably, incestuous. There may be other licit combinations in mind.
|
|
|
Incest
Dec 13, 2013 11:29:43 GMT -6
Post by francis on Dec 13, 2013 11:29:43 GMT -6
any ideas why god allowed incest during the time of Adam? I know it is for Generations of man kind to continue, but any other ideas? The simplest explanation is because He had not forbidden it. Often times we try too hard to find reason for what Allaah(swt) Permits or forbids. We have no reason to know. we only need know what has been forbidden and avoid doing it. There is no need to make life difficult. Still... God did give us a brain and He does want us to "reason" with Him as it says in scriptures. So I think Nabilbb questions is an interesting one... and in trying to answer it... and understanding God in that process... I don't think it makes life difficult. But that is just my humble opinion. With that in mind.... why would God not forbid something... and then later on, forbid it? The answer to that question... or the attempt in answering that question... gives a bit of insight into God's "thinking".. and with that insight... it might help us to understand other things He says or forbids or permits in the bible. For example... why would a good God permit horrible evil to exist? Obviously God does not condone evil.. and yet He permits it or allows it to exist. Why? Anyway... my understanding of why God didn't forbid incest early on (before Moses)... ( and it makes the most sense to me, for whatever that is worth)... is that incest at that time, didn't create the deformities, etc.. which we see today. And to me, that makes sense since it would seem to be true that the farther away that humans are (in time) from the initial point of creation (Adam and Eve)... the more deficiencies and problems and degradation the body incurs... if for no other reason than because of the cumulative ravages of sin. To me... (if we are to believe what the Bible narrates in the OT)... it seems that the human body has gone through a change... from "best" to "worse" over the history of mankind since Adam and Eve... physically and genetically. As one example... back before Moses... people were living a LOT longer. Anyway... that is how I would answer Nabilbb's question. God forbids incest (since Moses)... to protect people from the ravages and deformities that can occur because of incest.... especially if the incest occurs down the same family tree (like from father to daughter... then from that daughter to son... etc etc down the line). I could be wrong... completely wrong... but that is my opinion at the moment (which can change) Best regards Francis
|
|
|
Incest
Dec 13, 2013 11:54:08 GMT -6
Post by nabilbb on Dec 13, 2013 11:54:08 GMT -6
Thanks francis, That's a good answer
another question to every one on a similar thing Eating flesh of Pugs was prohibited in the OT, but now some people argue it became permissible in the NT the verse that says "What goes in doesn't make you unclean..." or something like that. I don't agree with this opinion but let's say it was true
Why God prohibits it during the time of Moses then makes it permissible now? Pig is the same Pig
|
|
|
Incest
Dec 13, 2013 13:30:23 GMT -6
Post by francis on Dec 13, 2013 13:30:23 GMT -6
Thanks francis, That's a good answer another question to every one on a similar thing Eating flesh of Pugs was prohibited in the OT, but now some people argue it became permissible in the NT the verse that says "What goes in doesn't make you unclean..." or something like that. I don't agree with this opinion but let's say it was true Why God prohibits it during the time of Moses then makes it permissible now? Pig is the same Pig Hi Nabilbb... There are a lot of answers to that question... and some of them can be incredibly deep... and it might be true that God had multiple reasons for once prohibiting the eating of pigs. So it's possible that multiple answers could be true.. and not just one answer. I mean... it's conjecture at this point since the bible doesn't really tell us all the reasons why God prohibited it in the first place. But in the interest of time... I'll give you a short answer... one that is not a very deep answer because I am not able to give one at this moment. While there might have been health reasons and other reasons why God prohibited the eating of pig... it also might be true that God wanted to make the nation of Israel separated and different than all other nations. Indeed, i think the people of Israel... God's people... are referred to as peculiar in the bible. Deuteronomy 14:2For you are an holy people to the LORD your God, and the LORD has chosen you to be a peculiar people to himself, above all the nations that are on the earth.I think that is one of the reasons why God gave the people of Israel lots of rules and prohibitions.. back then... that don't necessarily apply today. God wanted the Nation of Israel to be above all the nations that are on the earth at that time... to be His chosen people.. to be different... to stand out... to be unique... to belonging exclusively to God.. to be unusual... etc. Also... it might be an example or a test of obedience for the Nation of Israel. Sometimes God gives us "commandments" or "prohibitions" or asks us to do something... without a whole lot of explanations... for example: Abraham being asked to sacrifice his son... as a test of obedience and faith. Maybe pigs are very easy to raise and cheap to feed, etc... so it would be a real test of obedience to give up the eating of pork when raising pigs is so easy for a family to do. I don't know. But now the whole world is "God's people" (so to speak). With Jesus' death and resurrection... and with the Holy Spirit... God is not looking for one nation to be His people like in the OT times. So the same rules wouldn't need to apply if they were meant to produce a "separateness" from other nations and people. Anyway.. I'm sure there are probably better answers... but this answer I gave is off the cuff without doing any research... and I could be completely... or partially wrong. Best Regards Francis
|
|
|
Incest
Dec 13, 2013 15:40:27 GMT -6
Post by nabilbb on Dec 13, 2013 15:40:27 GMT -6
Thanks francis,
But still I don't agree with these answers, isn't it true the reason of prohibition is given in the OT? ".........unclean for you" (please correct me if I am wrong). so if they are unclean back then, they are the same now. am I missing something?
|
|
|
Incest
Dec 13, 2013 16:50:30 GMT -6
Post by francis on Dec 13, 2013 16:50:30 GMT -6
Thanks francis, But still I don't agree with these answers, isn't it true the reason of prohibition is given in the OT? ".........unclean for you" (please correct me if I am wrong). so if they are unclean back then, they are the same now. am I missing something? Hello Nabilbb... Well... we would have to understand what God meant when He said "unclean for you". See? Was that a statement designed to test obedience... or was it stated by God because He wanted to create a nation that was different than other nations and separate from them... etc? See? Or did God make that statement because there something in the "blood" of pigs... or in the body of pigs... or in the DNA and cells of pigs... that somehow was inherently and/or intrinsically and/or biologically "unclean" and thus dangerous for people to eat pork? Or maybe "unclean" meant something spiritual... maybe a spiritual metaphor or something like that? And if that is the case, then when the spiritual stakes and landscape changed on earth (with Jesus' Resurrection)... then the spiritual metaphor of a pig being "unclean" wasn't necessary anymore. See? It all depends on what God meant when He used the word "unclean". Maybe the Bible tells us what God meant and I will look into it when I have some time later on. But I suspect that if God was more clear on the subject, then you wouldn't have needed to ask the question at all. So it might be the case that the Bible is not all that clear. And if the Bible isn't all that clear on the subject, then there is no reason to rule that my answer is completely incorrect at first blush. I could be wrong of course, but I have not seen anything yet which shows or indicates that I am. Anyway... I'll look into it more. I'm curious now. Best Regards Francis
|
|
|
Incest
Dec 13, 2013 16:59:38 GMT -6
Post by Maggie on Dec 13, 2013 16:59:38 GMT -6
Don't forget to consider this problem in light of the vision Peter had shortly before being sent to Paul. I feel reasonably certain there is a meaningful connection. (Acts 10:9-16)
About noon the following day as they were on their journey and approaching the city, Peter went up on the roof to pray. He became hungry and wanted something to eat, and while the meal was being prepared, he fell into a trance. He saw heaven opened and something like a large sheet being let down to earth by its four corners. It contained all kinds of four-footed animals, as well as reptiles and birds. Then a voice told him, “Get up, Peter. Kill and eat.”
“Surely not, Lord!” Peter replied. “I have never eaten anything impure or unclean.” The voice spoke to him a second time, “Do not call anything impure that God has made clean.”
This happened three times, and immediately the sheet was taken back to heaven.
|
|
|
Incest
Dec 13, 2013 16:59:41 GMT -6
Post by francis on Dec 13, 2013 16:59:41 GMT -6
Hello Nabilbb...
I found the following entry in Wikipedia under "reasons" (for certain animals being considered as unclean)
So as you can see, the Bible is apparently not all that clear as to why pigs and other animals were considered unclean. The scholars themselves are not absolutely sure.
Also please note that one of the reasons given, was the same one I gave to you earlier... which shows that my answer is seriously considered by scholars as a possible answer to your question.
Best Regards Francis
|
|
|
Incest
Dec 13, 2013 17:07:36 GMT -6
Post by nabilbb on Dec 13, 2013 17:07:36 GMT -6
Sorry francis, I never said your answer is wrong, I just simply disagree with it I totally get what you mean by different meanings of Pigs being unclean but don't you think it is now clear that the Bible meant the flesh and the Blood are unclean, Science knows that clearly at this time that eating Pigs can cause many diseases?
Please forgive me if I offended you
|
|
|
Incest
Dec 13, 2013 17:11:28 GMT -6
Post by francis on Dec 13, 2013 17:11:28 GMT -6
Don't forget to consider this problem in light of the vision Peter had shortly before being sent to Paul. I feel reasonably certain there is a meaningful connection. (Acts 10:9-16)
About noon the following day as they were on their journey and approaching the city, Peter went up on the roof to pray. He became hungry and wanted something to eat, and while the meal was being prepared, he fell into a trance. He saw heaven opened and something like a large sheet being let down to earth by its four corners. It contained all kinds of four-footed animals, as well as reptiles and birds. Then a voice told him, “Get up, Peter. Kill and eat.”
“Surely not, Lord!” Peter replied. “I have never eaten anything impure or unclean.” The voice spoke to him a second time, “Do not call anything impure that God has made clean.”
This happened three times, and immediately the sheet was taken back to heaven. Hello Maggie... Yeah... unfortunately God doesn't explain to Peter about the reason for the change. Either that, or Peter didn't tell us. In Peter's vision... the way Peter hands it down to us.... God doesn't explain why the animals are "unclean" to begin with... or why they are "clean" now... or how God made an "unclean" animal "clean". So we are left with conjecture. Best Regards Francis
|
|
|
Incest
Dec 13, 2013 17:18:21 GMT -6
Post by francis on Dec 13, 2013 17:18:21 GMT -6
Sorry francis, I never said your answer is wrong, I just simply disagree with it I totally get what you mean by different meanings of Pigs being unclean but don't you think it is now clear that the Bible meant the flesh and the Blood are unclean, Science knows that clearly at this time that eating Pigs can cause many diseases? Please forgive me if I offended you LoL. Nabilbb... don't worry. You have not offended me in the least! The only time I ever get offended is if someone starts cursing me for my beliefs. Maggie brought up a good verse to consider. If the pigs were known (by God) to cause many diseases... and that is the reason for the prohibition against eating pork... then why were they now considered to be clean in Peter's vision? Did the technology needed to make pigs clean... did it change in Peter's time... and God had to tell Peter that because of science, it was now okay to eat pig? In the vision, it says that God made the pigs.. .(and the other unclean animals)... clean. Not science or people. See what I'm asking? I have a feeling that the word "unclean" has more to do with a spiritual metaphor, etc.. .than anything else. After all... if pigs was dangerous to eat.. .what about the other societies around Israel? correct me if I'm wrong, but there doesn't seem to be an historical documents of other nations and societies which linked health problems with eating pigs... or that other people were getting sicker by eating pigs. I'm not saying i disagree with you or with the premise that this is the reason for the original prohibition. Not at all. I'm just raising questions to be considered. Best Regards
|
|
|
Incest
Dec 13, 2013 17:26:18 GMT -6
Post by Maggie on Dec 13, 2013 17:26:18 GMT -6
Actually, I think the whole problem is tied up with the notion of purity. God's people were to be completely separate (pure) from the peoples around them. This notion of purity permeated everything, even agricultural practices. Apparently tribes around the Jews had the practice of mixing seed and sowing it all in the same field. That was forbidden to the Jews. The Jews were forbidden from wearing clothing of mixed fabrics. When you get to the impure animals, most, if not all of them are ambiguous in their type. Shell fish aren't fish but what are they? So the various laws seem to aim at erring on the side of caution. If it is not pure (completely separate) it is not allowed. I will try to look into this a little more tonight and see if I can find anything helpful.
|
|