kevin
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Posts: 19
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Post by kevin on Oct 29, 2013 18:17:20 GMT -6
it's worth pointing out too that the authoritative jewish text of the tanakh-- the ones the jews use to represent their oldest and most traditional readings -- is the masoritic text, which was assembled and recopied form old books and so forth around 900 AD. no earlier copies of the early hebrew scriptures existed until the dead sea scrolls/quamran stuff came to light, so what the jews were using as scripture until the 1940s was all based on very new manuscripts which were presumed to represent the old hebrew texts. and when the DSS et al stuff came to light, it was proven to be true. they *were* pretty accurate.
but until then it was the christian scriptures and the old greek-language septuagint (the OT for greek-speaking jews from 150 BC or so) that were older than any existing jewish manuscripts.
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Post by Woodrow LI on Oct 29, 2013 19:39:42 GMT -6
I think a few clarifications are needed concerning the Jewish scriptures. The Tanakh is the body of Jewish scripture. It consists of Torah (“Teaching”: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy); Nevi’im (“Prophets”: Joshua, Judges, Samuel (I & II), Kings (I & II), Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Hosea, Joel, Amos, Obadiah, Jonah, Micah, Nahum, Habakkuk, Zephaniah, Haggai, Zechariah, Malachi) Ketuvim (“Writings”: Psalms, Proverbs, Job, Song of Songs, Ruth, Lamentations, Ecclesiastes, Esther, Daniel, Ezra-Nehemiah, Chronicles). The Tanakh pretty much reached its final form around 450BCE, and canonization was completed between 200 BCE and 200 CE. The Torah was authoritative by the fifth century BCE, and the Prophets achieved a similar (but lesser) stature a couple centuries later. The perception of authority in The Writings varied. There was never any prohibition against putting the Tanakh in writing. The first version of the Christian Old Testament was selected from the books of the Tanakh by the Council of Carthage in 348 CE. It is a misnomer to refer to the Jewish Scriptures as the “Old Testament.” The Talmud is the collection of wisdom and interpretation of the Torah, and has two components: Mishnah is the written merger of the several traditions of the Oral Torah, the collective interpretation and wisdom regarding the Torah. The Oral Torah was not a memorized set piece, but evolved as it was passed down. The prohibition against putting the Oral Torah in writing guaranteed that interpretation would remain fluid with contemporary relevance. Following the destruction of the Second Temple and the final Diaspora, the rabbinic inheritors of Judaism finished putting these oral traditions in writing about 200 CE. Gemara was finalized in writing 3 centuries later. This is commentary on the Mishnah, the Tanakh and related writings. There are many good books regarding the Jewish scriptures, but for a quick read Wikipedia is Good Enough: TanakhTorahOral TorahTalmudI thank you for your clarification. Although I have had some Hashidic Jews tell me it was forbidden to write the Tanakh. It would not be the first time I may have misunderstood something. I probably entwinned the Tanakh with the Mishnah.
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Post by Woodrow LI on Oct 29, 2013 19:52:51 GMT -6
it's worth pointing out too that the authoritative jewish text of the tanakh-- the ones the jews use to represent their oldest and most traditional readings -- is the masoritic text, which was assembled and recopied form old books and so forth around 900 AD. no earlier copies of the early hebrew scriptures existed until the dead sea scrolls/quamran stuff came to light, so what the jews were using as scripture until the 1940s was all based on very new manuscripts which were presumed to represent the old hebrew texts. and when the DSS et al stuff came to light, it was proven to be true. they *were* pretty accurate. but until then it was the christian scriptures and the old greek-language septuagint (the OT for greek-speaking jews from 150 BC or so) that were older than any existing jewish manuscripts. Now that is interesting. I seem to recall that Hebrew as a spoken language was not reconstructed until after 1947 and that was the first time in nearly 3000 years it was used as a spoken language. It almost seems to be a paradox. The oldest is the newest.
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Post by Kiahanie on Oct 29, 2013 21:10:11 GMT -6
Only off by a millennium or so, Woodrow. Spoken Hebrew stopped being a common tongue after the destruction of the Second Temple, during the Diaspora. It survived another millennium as a liturgical language before petering out, then was resurrected in the late 1800s.
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Post by nabilbb on Oct 30, 2013 15:45:53 GMT -6
That you all, Kevin I like the way you tell it. now, there may or may not be different versions of these books, is that right?
who are the writers of these books? I don't mean the names, but what is their authority to write about God?
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Post by Kiahanie on Oct 30, 2013 22:19:05 GMT -6
That you all, Kevin I like the way you tell it. now, there may or may not be different versions of these books, is that right? who are the writers of these books? I don't mean the names, but what is their authority to write about God? Mostly, they were not talking about god. In most cases they were speaking of their relationships with their god, individually or as a community. Their authority was derived from their ability to speak authentically of those relationships and experiences.
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Post by Maggie on Oct 31, 2013 9:07:34 GMT -6
Hmmm. That is "Quaker speak" and likely a foreign language to someone who stands completely outside the traditions of Christianity. If so, perhaps the following might help:
The Old Testament is the Jews national story. (While I am aware that Jews are often put off by the term Old Testament, I don't really know what their preferred term(s) is (are), so I need to stick to what I am familiar with.) It preserves their history, their laws, their stories and poetry, their court chronicles and, above all, their understanding of their relationship to God.) Most of this does not need special authority to write about. When it comes to claiming that "God said" that is another matter. We have books written by some of the prophets. We know that Isaiah had three authors. That they had God's authority to speak for him can be inferred from the fact that the harsh penalties for claiming falsely that God had said something were not assessed against them. Of course, those books would not be in the Jewish canon if they were felt to have been written by false prophets.
I am not sure what else to say. But perhaps we have gotten at what you wanted to know?
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Post by nabilbb on Oct 31, 2013 9:46:54 GMT -6
so the bible Writers are some times prophets and some times are regular people like us
*Prophets like who? Maybe Woodrow can give the Arabic names here *If it is written by regular people like us, what makes that book Holly?
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Post by Maggie on Oct 31, 2013 10:55:50 GMT -6
Prophets (who wrote books under their names gathered in the Old Testament): Isaiah, Jeremiah, Habakkuk, Obadiah, Micah, Hosea, Zephaniah, Nahum, Ezekiel, Malachi, Amos, Haggai.
I have probably missed one or two. There are lots of famous prophets who did not write a book under their own names but in which the prophet is the main subject.
What makes the book holy? Well books are made of paper and ink. They are never holy. The Word of God is holy. Those who speak in His name truly, proclaim His Word. That is why we honor them.
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Post by nabilbb on Oct 31, 2013 11:31:37 GMT -6
what does "they speak in his name" means can we do that?
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Post by Maggie on Oct 31, 2013 11:42:30 GMT -6
When a prophet said, "Thus says the Lord" he needed to be 100% right. The punishment for putting false words in God's mouth was death.
We can say, "The Lord told me", "The Lord says", only if He really does tell us to speak for him. That is not likely since He has the Church and Scripture and both have the authority that no individual can have. Still, it is possible that God might speak to us but we would need to be very, very careful that we weren't just hearing our own voice telling us what we want to hear.
What is allowed is to say things like, "the Lord says that adultery is wrong". That is true. He has said that in the pages of scripture. It is also permissible to say things like "I feel strongly that the Lord is telling me to pray for you". God still speaks to us in all things, at all times but not usually in the unmediated way He did in the Old Testament.
When people start claiming that God is supporting their personal ambitions, political causes, etc., they are on dangerous ground and we should be very cautious.
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Post by Woodrow LI on Oct 31, 2013 12:42:15 GMT -6
so the bible Writers are some times prophets and some times are regular people like us *Prophets like who? Maybe Woodrow can give the Arabic names here *If it is written by regular people like us, what makes that book Holly? While there were Prophets sent to all People we only know the names of a few. Here is a listing of those we Muslims know as Prophets along with their English names and/or the English meaning of their name. Named in the OT and the Qur'anAdem (Adam) Idris (Enoch) Nuh (Noah) Hud (Eber) Ibrahim (Abraham) Lut (Lot) Isma'il (Ishmael) Is-haq (Isaac) Ya'qub (Jacob) Yusuf (Joseph) Ayyub (Job) Shu'aib (Jethro) Harun (Aaron) Musa (Moses) Dawud (David) Sulayman (Solomon) Ilyas (Elijah / Elias) Yunus (Jonah / Jonas) Dhul-Kifl (Ezekiel) (Possessor of a Fold) Zakariyya (Zechariah / Zecharias) Named in the NT and the Qur'anIsa (English:Jesus) (Hebrew: Yeshua/Joshua) (Koin Greek: Ioseus) Yahya (John the Baptist) Named in the Qur'an Muhammad (Praiseworthy)
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Post by nabilbb on Oct 31, 2013 13:23:19 GMT -6
When a prophet said, "Thus says the Lord" he needed to be 100% right. The punishment for putting false words in God's mouth was death. We can say, "The Lord told me", "The Lord says", only if He really does tell us to speak for him. That is not likely since He has the Church and Scripture and both have the authority that no individual can have. Still, it is possible that God might speak to us but we would need to be very, very careful that we weren't just hearing our own voice telling us what we want to hear. What is allowed is to say things like, "the Lord says that adultery is wrong". That is true. He has said that in the pages of scripture. It is also permissible to say things like "I feel strongly that the Lord is telling me to pray for you". God still speaks to us in all things, at all times but not usually in the unmediated way He did in the Old Testament. When people start claiming that God is supporting their personal ambitions, political causes, etc., they are on dangerous ground and we should be very cautious. So the Bible writers who were not prophets, is it assumed that God spoke to them?
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Post by Maggie on Oct 31, 2013 14:47:37 GMT -6
I don't know of any Old Testament writer who claimed that God spoke to him, unless he was a prophet.
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Post by nabilbb on Oct 31, 2013 15:08:17 GMT -6
so why are they believed by people if they didn't claim that? How about the NT writers, did they claim that God spoke to them?
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Post by Maggie on Oct 31, 2013 17:09:57 GMT -6
Well God did speak to a lot of people in the New Testament. Jesus Christ is God, as we believe. We know he spoke to many people, during his earthly life.
As to why the books of the Bible are believed? From what little I have read in the Qu'ran, it seems like it is devoted to preaching and instruction. The Bible is a very different sort of literature. Take Genesis,for example. It starts out with a poetic retelling of the creation of the world. It races through the history of the world in order, it seems, to get to its real interest-- the founding of the Jewish nation. Abraham doesn't appear until chapter 11. The rest of the book is taken up with interesting and often sad stories about individuals and families. Stories teach lessons better, sometimes, than instructions or rules do. For instance, God's plan for mankind was one man; one wife. Well, humans ignored that from early on. But if you look at the stories in Genesis or in the rest of the Old Testament, polygamy is a disaster. Wives fighting with wives to give their own children preference, brothers fighting half-brothers, etc. The story of Hagar is a very good example of a bad outcome for the secondary wife.
Books like Leviticus do set out the laws the Jews were to abide by; Job is a story that speaks to an issue that every single human being struggles with at some point in his life... why do the innocent suffer? The Psalms are poems/songs-- some joyful, some tragic, some bloodthirsty. Other books describe the Jews on the battlefield; yet others describe their political organization-- first under judges and then under kings. All of it illustrates how God dealt with the Jews and the lessons they learned from their struggles. And we learn from them too. That is why there is a great deal of disagreement over how to interpret many of the stories we read. Most, if not all, stories can have multiple meanings.
The New Testament is a very different kind of literature. We can talk about that next, if you like.
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Post by nabilbb on Oct 31, 2013 18:50:16 GMT -6
Woodrow, Is any bible writer mentioned in the Quran or Hadith?
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Post by Woodrow LI on Oct 31, 2013 19:55:44 GMT -6
Woodrow, Is any bible writer mentioned in the Quran or Hadith? In the OT you have the Prophets(PBUT) I mentioned in my earlier post. In the NT none of the actual writers are mentioned. While Yahya and Isa are mentioned, there is nothing attributed to being their writings.
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kevin
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Posts: 19
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Post by kevin on Nov 4, 2013 14:23:33 GMT -6
thinking
i haven't figured out how to manipulate text here.
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kevin
New Member
Posts: 19
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Post by kevin on Nov 4, 2013 14:35:56 GMT -6
so why are they believed by people if they didn't claim that? How about the NT writers, did they claim that God spoke to them? i think one of the clearest examples of a NT writer claiming inspiration is in the most difficult book, the revelation: starts out this way: but inspiration can be claimed by anybody, and some of the branches of christianity considered heretical had all sorts of people claiming all sorts of things, i believe. not everything that is inspired by god ended up being included in standrad scripture, either. as a quaker, i believe that revelation/inspiration occurs today, but there isn't any way i would include anything i felt coming from god into any collection of inspired biblical books. i think that would be pretty presumptious.
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