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Post by nabilbb on Oct 22, 2013 11:14:15 GMT -6
I want this thread to be a simplified study of the Bible which I don't know much about, If someone can give a Bible lesson every few days things like * Bible writers * Books of the Bible * when were they written * Bible development until the new testament
and Woodrow helps connecting the names to the Arabic names that Muslims know if applicable
so, who can do this?
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Post by Maggie on Oct 22, 2013 11:43:18 GMT -6
Well, actually I can. Someone else who could be a big help is Yusufnoor but he doesn't post much anymore. Still, he might come help since this is a favorite topic of his. How about if I start with the books of the Bible-- maybe on Friday or Saturday? On second thought, I might ask Kevin to do it because he is *really* knowledgeable about the various canons.
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Post by Woodrow LI on Oct 22, 2013 13:21:16 GMT -6
I want this thread to be a simplified study of the Bible which I don't know much about, If someone can give a Bible lesson every few days things like * Bible writers * Books of the Bible * when were they written * Bible development until the new testament and Woodrow helps connecting the names to the Arabic names that Muslims know if applicable so, who can do this? First Suggestion we use the Catholic version of the Bible preferably a translation of the Latin Vulgate as it contains all the books that were included until the second edition of the KJV. Second Suggestion for Books up until Isaiah we give the names in English, Hebrew and Arabic, From Isaiah on we give the names in English, Aramaic and Arabic. Third suggestion to keep it from turning into a debate we do only the OT.
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Post by nabilbb on Oct 22, 2013 13:23:45 GMT -6
That's a good idea, I don't want to debate in this thread I want to understand. Also you have to take it easy on me since I don't know much about the Bible
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Post by Maggie on Oct 22, 2013 13:58:12 GMT -6
I am fine with however you want to do it. I have asked Kevin to take part. We'll see if he might be interested.
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Post by Kiahanie on Oct 22, 2013 15:50:31 GMT -6
As a companion to this study, I highly recommend The Meaning of the Bible: What the Jewish Scriptures and Christian Old Testament Can Teach Us by Knight and Levine.
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Post by nabilbb on Oct 22, 2013 16:05:01 GMT -6
I didn't intend for this thread to be a bible Study, it is more on how it was constructed to the Present Bible so in short the History of it
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Post by Kiahanie on Oct 22, 2013 16:35:59 GMT -6
That sounds even more interesting. Something along the lines of Konrad Schmid's The Old Testament: A Literary History maybe?
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Post by nabilbb on Oct 22, 2013 16:44:41 GMT -6
Well, actually I can. Someone else who could be a big help is Yusufnoor but he doesn't post much anymore. Still, he might come help since this is a favorite topic of his. How about if I start with the books of the Bible-- maybe on Friday or Saturday? On second thought, I might ask Kevin to do it because he is *really* knowledgeable about the various canons. Here is the first question for you What are Canons?
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Post by Maggie on Oct 22, 2013 16:53:20 GMT -6
Great question, we do use that word a lot. A canon is any list of books considered authoritative by a group, usually a religious body. But in my field of study (literature) certain titles and authors are considered so important that they must be read, so we students of literature talk about the "literary canon".
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Post by Maggie on Oct 22, 2013 16:57:01 GMT -6
I see Yusufnoor is online! Maybe he will come over and start the conversation going in earnest! I have to step out. I am just about to leave my office. I need my dinner!
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Post by Woodrow LI on Oct 22, 2013 18:27:03 GMT -6
That sounds even more interesting. Something along the lines of Konrad Schmid's The Old Testament: A Literary History maybe? If I understand Nabilbb correctly I believe that is correct.
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Post by nabilbb on Oct 28, 2013 8:02:03 GMT -6
So no one!!!!!!!
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Post by Maggie on Oct 28, 2013 9:48:35 GMT -6
What do you mean, Nabilbb? Kevin has agreed to spend time talking about the development of the various canons. I will remind him that we are waiting. But I was under the impression that you were interested in the Old Testament. I just realized that you put this in the New Testament category. So, are you mostly interested in the Old? The New? Or both?
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Post by nabilbb on Oct 28, 2013 10:26:31 GMT -6
I am interested in Both, but We can start with the OT just to remind you, I am looking for basic information, not really details for now then I will be asking questions. I didn't see Kevin posting here, I was not aware that he agreed
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Post by Maggie on Oct 28, 2013 10:43:04 GMT -6
I had to get all mean with him and remind him of his promise. Just because he works 7 days a week and currently is sick is no excuse for not responding here. None whatever. So I expect we will hear something yet today. In the meantime, do you have a particular question that you would like answered? It would help a lot to guide the discussion to know, if you have some specific questions in mind. Well, I can always start at the very beginning.
Jews and Christians (Muslims, too I would think)had always held that Torah (or Pentateuch, as Christians call it, consisting of Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy) had been written by Moses. Then about 150 years ago another theory, the Documentary theory, or, JEDP became prominent. Those letters are derived from the 4 sources scholars saw in the compilation of these books to which they gave the names, J (Y)= Yahwist, the Elohist, the Deuteronomist and the Priestly. Basically, the contradictions that these books contain could be nicely accounted for if there were originally different versions of these stories that were later compiled into one version. The layers of different sources were identified by the names given in those books to God (Yahweh/Elohim and to the author of Deuteronomy, and, finally, the Priestly author. You can look up Documentary hypothesis if you like. I had to look at the wikipedia article to remember all this stuff, even though I had a whole class in college on it! (Of course, that was a million years ago).
This theory has fallen out of favor, even though it reigned for a century or more. There are lots of other theories about authorship out there but the one I like best (maybe because I understand it) has been proposed by scholars like Gary Rendsberg, a favorite of mine. He thinks that Genesis, specifically was written by a scribe at the court of King David (which would push its date back to the 10th century B.C. I am not sure where he stands on the other 4 books). His best proof for this is the construction of Genesis. It is a very sophisticated literary composition! He is actually quite thrilling to hear on the subject. I have a course he did for the Teaching Company and it was amazing. I also have his out of print book on the subject. He is a less thrilling writer but still he is interesting to read.
So that is a little tiny bit about Genesis. Does that give you any ideas about questions you might ask?
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kevin
New Member
Posts: 19
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Post by kevin on Oct 28, 2013 10:54:07 GMT -6
Here is the first question for you What are Canons? hey bud i can answer some questions, maybe. a "canon" is just a rule, in the case of scripture meaning a particular set of books considered to be authoritative and inspired by the people who use them. here's an overview to get started. the christian bible is made up of a whole bunch of shorter books, written in different times and places by different people for different purposes. the two big divisions everybody agrees on are the Old Testament, which is derived from the very old books of judaism, and the New Testament, which is a collection of newer accounts and letters that pertain spcifically to christianity. christianity divided pretty early into different movements that went to different parts of the world, taking their bibles with them, and sometimes adding or subtracting books that they thought ought to be in it. so today we have different branches of christianity that assemble their bibles slightly differently, including or excluding a few different books, sometimes as many as a dozen. for example, the roman catholic bible has something like 88 books in it, an older OT set and a slightly newer OT set (both from the jewish collection of holy books). some people call the older one the proterocanon, and the catholics call the newer 12 or so books the deuterocanon, which just means added later. protestants agree about the proterocanon, but consider the deuterocanon to be flawed, and either reject it completely or use it for readings but not for making doctrinal decisions. so the protestant bible has only 66 books. those protestants who reject the 12 books of the deuterocanon call them the Apocrypha. some of the apocryphal books describe the history of judaism between the last prophets of the OT and the first prophets of the new, so the books are important histoically no matter what you believe about their religious significance. the main different canons currently in use are the roman catholic, the protestant, the orthodox, and syriatic. there's also extinct canons like the samaritan, for instance. they generally differ little in the actual texts of the books themselves, but rather disagree on which books should be considered authoritative. almost all of the disputes are in the books making up the old testament, and there are various convoluted histories about why that is the case. for new testament books, mostly everybody agrees. there's an additional category of books called the pseudigrapha, made up of writings that almost everybody agrees to be fake. some of these are very old texts that descend from splinter christian groups like the gnostics, and some are just faked letters and so forth. sometimes these are pretty orthodox, because it was common back then for people to write religious books and sign them with the name of an early authority as a mark of respect. but now we can't tell. some examples are the gospel of judas, the gospel of mary magdalene, the book of enoch (an old jewish book that the jews don't accept) and so on. sometimes the disputed books have some stuff in them that appears to be true, like the gospel of thomas. but generally the pseudigrapha are rejected. does this help?
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kevin
New Member
Posts: 19
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Post by kevin on Oct 28, 2013 10:57:46 GMT -6
I had to get all mean with him and remind him of his promise. Just because he works 7 days a week and currently is sick is no excuse for not responding here. None whatever. So I expect we will hear something yet today. i don't work seven days anymore, thank you dear heavenly father. what i do is work six 14-hour days, and then i get three off. this is an absolute paradisical change from 7/12. i can't believe i managed 7/12s for so long without dying.
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Post by Woodrow LI on Oct 29, 2013 8:51:23 GMT -6
Sounds like Kevin is slowing down in his old age. I think there are at least 8 perspectives as to the development of the OT. The views of the Jews. The views of the Roman Catholics/Greek Orthodox, Eastern Orthodox, Coptics. Ethiopian Orthodox, Thomason Christians ( Also called Thomason Catholics) and the Anglican Church. I combined Roman Catholic and Greek Orthodox as at the time of the development of the Bible they were one Church. Each group does differ as to which books are scripture. The Number of books in the OT does vary from 1 to 103 possibly more in the past. The OT is somewhat the Written Torah (The first 5 Books of the OT) The Book of Psalms and the Written Tanakh Jews often get very upset over the OT and some even consider it insulting and an attempt to destroy Judaism. At best they see it as being a poor translation of the written Torah and the written Tanakh. Most jews do not consider the Written Torah to be understandable without the oral Torah. An Orthodox Jew considers the written Tahakh to be very dubious and a poor source of Jewish History. The Tanakh is essentially the Oral History and Traditions of the Jews and was not to have been written. No Jew dared put it in written form until about the year 300 AD The Dead sea scrolls seem to indicate that the Essenes put parts of it in written form. sounds like Kevem is slowing down in his old age.
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Post by Kiahanie on Oct 29, 2013 14:23:18 GMT -6
I think a few clarifications are needed concerning the Jewish scriptures. The Tanakh is the body of Jewish scripture. It consists of Torah (“Teaching”: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy); Nevi’im (“Prophets”: Joshua, Judges, Samuel (I & II), Kings (I & II), Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Hosea, Joel, Amos, Obadiah, Jonah, Micah, Nahum, Habakkuk, Zephaniah, Haggai, Zechariah, Malachi) Ketuvim (“Writings”: Psalms, Proverbs, Job, Song of Songs, Ruth, Lamentations, Ecclesiastes, Esther, Daniel, Ezra-Nehemiah, Chronicles). The Tanakh pretty much reached its final form around 450BCE, and canonization was completed between 200 BCE and 200 CE. The Torah was authoritative by the fifth century BCE, and the Prophets achieved a similar (but lesser) stature a couple centuries later. The perception of authority in The Writings varied. There was never any prohibition against putting the Tanakh in writing. The first version of the Christian Old Testament was selected from the books of the Tanakh by the Council of Carthage in 348 CE. It is a misnomer to refer to the Jewish Scriptures as the “Old Testament.” The Talmud is the collection of wisdom and interpretation of the Torah, and has two components: Mishnah is the written merger of the several traditions of the Oral Torah, the collective interpretation and wisdom regarding the Torah. The Oral Torah was not a memorized set piece, but evolved as it was passed down. The prohibition against putting the Oral Torah in writing guaranteed that interpretation would remain fluid with contemporary relevance. Following the destruction of the Second Temple and the final Diaspora, the rabbinic inheritors of Judaism finished putting these oral traditions in writing about 200 CE. Gemara was finalized in writing 3 centuries later. This is commentary on the Mishnah, the Tanakh and related writings. There are many good books regarding the Jewish scriptures, but for a quick read Wikipedia is Good Enough: TanakhTorahOral TorahTalmud
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